Successful child sacrifice, and dishonest Christians
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09-11-2013, 02:29 PM (This post was last modified: 09-11-2013 03:06 PM by Raptor Jesus.)
Successful child sacrifice, and dishonest Christians
When looking up something unrelated to this, I happened to come across a site “debunking” other sites that quote bible atrocities. This site attempts to explain why these atrocities, were in fact not really atrocities, and how these anti-bible websites are being dishonest. Let’s take a look at who is really being dishonest, starting with this one particular entry they posted. It kind of stood out in my mind. For clarity of tracking quotes, I've color coated them.

Judges 11:29-40: No list of Bible atrocities would be complete without the case of Jephthah’s daughter. First, the vow was public—his daughter would have known about it. This makes it likely that she was the first one out of the house on purpose. Second, even if Jephthah had intended to make his daughter into a burnt offering, a Levite would be extremely unlikely to allow that. Third, the book of Judges is all about how bad Israel became when they forgot God and there was no king to enforce the Law. So this is an example of the Bible reporting something that it doesn’t necessarily condone. Most importantly, the fact that Jephthah’s daughter was much more concerned about her perpetual virginity than the end of her life strongly suggests that she was dedicated for lifelong Temple service, not burnt as an offering.

WOW this is full of loads of disingenuity!!! The full bible passage:

Judges 11:29-40
New International Version (NIV)
29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”
32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the Lord gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated. I have made a vow to the Lord that I cannot break.”
36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the Lord. Do to me just as you promised, now that the Lord has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.”
38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.
From this comes the Israelite tradition 40 that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.


Now, let’s break this down.


First, the vow was public—his daughter would have known about it. This makes it likely that she was the first one out of the house on purpose.

29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

Where in that passage does it say Jephthah was making a public vow? It doesn’t. They made that up. It is simply not in the text. Second let’s say, simply for the sake of argument, he did in fact make the vow in public. He made the vow after he “crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah” and just before doing battle with the Ammonites, at which point in the passage he made the vow. Unless she was there with him and the army, when he made this supposedly public vow, then why would she have any idea of the vow he made? She should in all likelihood be at home, not in battle. She was a female child, after all. Farther proof, based on the text, that he was not himself at his home, "whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me WHEN I RETURN HOME in triumph from the Ammonites". In actuality, I can show, based on the text, that his daughter was in fact at home, and not with him as he made the vow because it says, When Jephthah RETURNED to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels!

She was not there with him, regardless of whether or not he made the vow public, which there is no indication that the vow was public to begin with. The text also says “When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated.” Clearly he did not know it would be his daughter, so how could she possibly have known herself? So we can scratch those claims off. Also the one that says, based on the daughter knowing of the vow, “This makes it likely that she was the first one out of the house on purpose.” Considering she did not know, it would make this last statement false as well. We can strike all of that.


Second, even if Jephthah had intended to make his daughter into a burnt offering, a Levite would be extremely unlikely to allow that.

Jephthah himself says, “I have made a vow to the Lord that I CANNOT BREAK” what reason would the Levite’s have for breaking it. Based on what reasoning in the bible would we have to believe a Levite would have intervened? They never have before on any other atrocity, why begain now? It was a vow to the lord, and one which the lord accepted by giving him victory. The Levites would not have gone against the lord. One could argue that clearly the Levites would have known that child sacrifice is clearly not something “God” would approve of, but then we are putting our own human morality on the bible. Clearly this point is being argued because the author actually has better morals that the book from whence he claim to receive his morality, so he is attempting to clean up a clearly immoral passage. But we’ve all read the bible…”God” is cool with it for sure. The author of this rebuttal is clearly interjecting his own beliefs, and not using the biblical text itself to support his claims.


Third, the book of Judges is all about how bad Israel became when they forgot God and there was no king to enforce the Law. So this is an example of the Bible reporting something that it doesn’t necessarily condone.

Not exactly. Some parts of “Judges” show Israel “forgetting” “God”, being punished, then they coming back again and are rewarded by “God”. Then oddly forget again. Then come back, then forget, then come back, on and on... Clearly, here he did not forget “God”. He remembered and went directly toward “God” and beseeched "God", and “God” rewarded him. Jephthah's own daughter says, "you have given your word to the Lord. Do to me just as you promised, now that THE LORD HAS AVENGED YOU OF YOUR ENEMIES, the Ammonites.". Clearly this passage is not just telling us about something horrible that happened, but is telling us about something that happened under "God's" watch, by his authority. This passage is not showing the evil of the backslide Israelite, but of the faith and power of “God” and of “God’s” reward for such faith and devotion. Faith and devotion even in the face of such an unimaginable sacrifice, such as Abraham was tested. Except unlike Abraham, Jephthah’s child was not spared at the last moment as a mere test of his faith and devotion. Her death was required by “God”.



Most importantly, the fact that Jephthah’s daughter was much more concerned about her perpetual virginity than the end of her life strongly suggests that she was dedicated for lifelong Temple service, not burnt as an offering.

Except again for that pesky thing called, what the bible actually says, in which the text says, “Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will SACRIFICE IT AS A BURNT offering.”.
I have made a vow to the Lord that I cannot break.
"36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the Lord. Do to me JUST as you PROMISED, now that the Lord has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites.
After the two months, she returned to her father, and HE DID TO HER AS HE VOWED.

Clearly this was intended as an actual BURNT SACRIFICE OF HIS DAUGHTER to "God"


And lastly, the author’s argument was that this was an evil act by and Israelite who had “forgotten” “God” at a lawless time. But either way, she wasn’t killed, just went into “lifelong temple service”. Then why would “From this comes the Israelite tradition 40 that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.” if all she did was join the temple over an event that the author also argues was not something that “God” agreed upon or condoned. It would seem there should be no reason for Israelite girls to remember her, if the author’s argument is correct.


Conclusion..."God" wanted Jephthah to burn his daughter alive, because the "God" of the bible is a sick, immoral fuck.

...
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09-11-2013, 02:34 PM
RE: Successful child sacrifice, and dishonest Christians
Holyshit! I just took another gander at that site, read a couple more, and saw this written in a section about rape in the bible...

"Rape

The passages in the Bible which skeptics accuse of advocating rape fall into several broad categories, so I will cover them according to those categories:
"

First category of rape is...
"“Rape” which is actually marriage:"

...
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09-11-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: Successful child sacrifice, and dishonest Christians
Another problem with the "evil Israelite" argument is that the act isn't condemned, and Jepthah is even mentioned in the New Testament in a positive light (I'll look up the verse and post it for reference).

"I feel as though the camera is almost a kind of voyeur in Mr. Beans life, and you just watch this bizarre man going about his life in the way that he wants to."

-Rowan Atkinson
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09-11-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: Successful child sacrifice, and dishonest Christians
(09-11-2013 02:43 PM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  Another problem with the "evil Israelite" argument is that the act isn't condemned, and Jepthah is even mentioned in the New Testament in a positive light (I'll look up the verse and post it for reference).

" And what more should I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets—33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched raging fire, escaped the edge of the sword, won strength out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight."

Hebrews 11:32-34

"I feel as though the camera is almost a kind of voyeur in Mr. Beans life, and you just watch this bizarre man going about his life in the way that he wants to."

-Rowan Atkinson
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09-11-2013, 03:09 PM
RE: Successful child sacrifice, and dishonest Christians
(09-11-2013 02:50 PM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  
(09-11-2013 02:43 PM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  Another problem with the "evil Israelite" argument is that the act isn't condemned, and Jepthah is even mentioned in the New Testament in a positive light (I'll look up the verse and post it for reference).

" And what more should I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets—33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched raging fire, escaped the edge of the sword, won strength out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight."

Hebrews 11:32-34

Good assist! That's helpful to know that is there if it should ever come up.

...
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09-11-2013, 05:13 PM
RE: Successful child sacrifice, and dishonest Christians
(09-11-2013 02:34 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Holyshit! I just took another gander at that site, read a couple more, and saw this written in a section about rape in the bible...

"Rape

The passages in the Bible which skeptics accuse of advocating rape fall into several broad categories, so I will cover them according to those categories:
"

First category of rape is...
"“Rape” which is actually marriage:"

Sounds about right to me.
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09-11-2013, 06:03 PM
RE: Successful child sacrifice, and dishonest Christians
(09-11-2013 02:34 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  First category of rape is...
"“Rape” which is actually marriage:"

"this incident doesn’t imply rape; it implies kidnapping and forced marriage."

Oh...well...never mind then. If you kidnap someone and then force them to marry you, it's clearly not rape anymore. No

It doesn't get much better when they get to Murder.

"The 'atrocity lists' invariably include the death penalty passages from the Mosaic Law. But these are made into capital offenses, so someone who is killed as a result of disobeying these laws is being executed, not murdered. Unbelievers might complain that capital punishment for these reasons is unjust, but the burden of proof is on them to prove that it is unjust. So the death penalty passages will not be dealt with in this article."

Yes, executed for capital offenses like picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week or an engaged woman not yelling loud enough while she's being raped... I can see why they wanted to leave those out.

And the fact that they place the burden of proof on us to demonstrate that death is an unjust penalty in those cases is a perfect example of how religion twists up morality. It's too bad comments are closed on the article.

"I feel as though the camera is almost a kind of voyeur in Mr. Beans life, and you just watch this bizarre man going about his life in the way that he wants to."

-Rowan Atkinson
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09-11-2013, 06:26 PM
RE: Successful child sacrifice, and dishonest Christians
(09-11-2013 06:03 PM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  Yes, executed for capital offenses like picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week or an engaged woman not yelling loud enough while she's being raped... I can see why they wanted to leave those out.
...
Yeah, it seems totally fair to murder...I mean capital punish people for these reasons. There is no way to prove either of these two examples are unjust...

(09-11-2013 06:03 PM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  ... It's too bad comments are closed on the article.
I noticed this too. I wanted to reply, but obviously they realize they can't handle any critiques.

...
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09-11-2013, 08:45 PM
RE: Successful child sacrifice, and dishonest Christians
Regarding child sacrifice...

If they are trying to expunge the immoral passages that seem to condone this, what do they say about Jesus?

That he was not the son of god?

Dodgy

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10-11-2013, 03:14 AM
RE: Successful child sacrifice, and dishonest Christians
Urghh my head hurts after reading that. Will have to read it again later. Don't get why christians try to defend their bible 'logically', if it is taken by faith. Same with creationists. They just make fools of themselves.

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