Suffering and Sacrifice
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22-10-2014, 01:40 PM
RE: Suffering and Sacrifice
(22-10-2014 01:24 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 01:16 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Isn't this just peachy? Religions have concocted all sorts of ways to "erase" your transgressions against other people and of course gods.

And they don't involve the sinner taking responsibility for making up for his/her own sins.

Well, saying 5 "Our Fathers" and 10 "Hail Marys" is pretty severe don't you know?

Me - "Bless me father for I have sinned. It has been thirty-four years since my last confession. I have taken the Lord's name in vain 32,157 times. I've masturbated 6,881 times. I've had sexual relations out of wedlock. I've missed 1,768 Sundays. BUT in my defense not once have I ever molested a child nor raped, killed, dismembered, enslaved, stoned or psychologically damaged another human being."

Priest - "You're not a very good Catholic are you?"

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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22-10-2014, 02:20 PM
RE: Suffering and Sacrifice
(22-10-2014 01:40 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 01:24 PM)Impulse Wrote:  And they don't involve the sinner taking responsibility for making up for his/her own sins.

Well, saying 5 "Our Fathers" and 10 "Hail Marys" is pretty severe don't you know?

Me - "Bless me father for I have sinned. It has been thirty-four years since my last confession. I have taken the Lord's name in vain 32,157 times. I've masturbated 6,881 times. I've had sexual relations out of wedlock. I've missed 1,768 Sundays. BUT in my defense not once have I ever molested a child nor raped, killed, dismembered, enslaved, stoned or psychologically damaged another human being."

Priest - "You're not a very good Catholic are you?"

Well, that's better than the other extreme:

Me: "Bless me father, for I have sinned. I'm a serial killer. I have murdered 99 people in the last year. But I'm really, really sorry, and I promise not to do it again."

Priest: "Go in peace. Your sins are forgiven."
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22-10-2014, 02:40 PM
RE: Suffering and Sacrifice
(22-10-2014 02:20 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 01:40 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Well, saying 5 "Our Fathers" and 10 "Hail Marys" is pretty severe don't you know?

Me - "Bless me father for I have sinned. It has been thirty-four years since my last confession. I have taken the Lord's name in vain 32,157 times. I've masturbated 6,881 times. I've had sexual relations out of wedlock. I've missed 1,768 Sundays. BUT in my defense not once have I ever molested a child nor raped, killed, dismembered, enslaved, stoned or psychologically damaged another human being."

Priest - "You're not a very good Catholic are you?"

Well, that's better than the other extreme:

Me: "Bless me father, for I have sinned. I'm a serial killer. I have murdered 99 people in the last year. But I'm really, really sorry, and I promise not to do it again."

Priest: "Go in peace. Your sins are forgiven."

Your response made me think of the following. I've been asked by the religious what keeps me from doing all sorts of horrible things if I don't believe in God or hell. BUT that question can be answered with "What keeps you from doing all sorts of terrible things if you can ask for forgiveness and know you'll be forgiven?"

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“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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22-10-2014, 02:44 PM
RE: Suffering and Sacrifice
(22-10-2014 01:20 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 12:53 PM)Dom Wrote:  I forget which one of our theist guests here explained to us that suffering has to happen so that we can appreciate the beauty of heaven.

That's odd. Considering heaven is supposed to be so full of bliss and beauty that we totally relish in it, no longer want to sin even though we would still have the free will to do so, and would completely forget about or not care about friends and relatives burning in hell for eternity, but it takes suffering before we could really appreciate it. Overwhelming beauty suddenly sounds underwhelming. Or maybe I haven't suffered enough yet to appreciate it. Tongue

Heaven:

You can't appreciate it if you haven't suffered -

You won't be able to stand it if you don't have your brain wiped clean of memories of your hellbound loved ones -

You go there no matter what size of asshole you are if you worship the god -

You won't go there no matter how saintly you are if you didn't worship the god -

Sounds like heaven is unpleasant and you need to come from worse conditions to value it, the situation with your loved ones would drive you nuts so you need a lobotomy, and it will be full of assholes and many of the saintly people are going to be in hell. Tongue

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22-10-2014, 02:48 PM
RE: Suffering and Sacrifice
(22-10-2014 02:44 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 01:20 PM)Impulse Wrote:  That's odd. Considering heaven is supposed to be so full of bliss and beauty that we totally relish in it, no longer want to sin even though we would still have the free will to do so, and would completely forget about or not care about friends and relatives burning in hell for eternity, but it takes suffering before we could really appreciate it. Overwhelming beauty suddenly sounds underwhelming. Or maybe I haven't suffered enough yet to appreciate it. Tongue

Heaven:

You can't appreciate it if you haven't suffered -

You won't be able to stand it if you don't have your brain wiped clean of memories of your hellbound loved ones -

You go there no matter what size of asshole you are if you worship the god -

You won't go there no matter how saintly you are if you didn't worship the god -

Sounds like heaven is unpleasant and you need to come from worse conditions to value it, the situation with your loved ones would drive you nuts so you need a lobotomy, and it will be full of assholes and many of the saintly people are going to be in hell. Tongue

Great, now you ruined it for me. I was so hoping to go there and play my harp. Big Grin

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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22-10-2014, 02:52 PM
RE: Suffering and Sacrifice
(22-10-2014 12:53 PM)Dom Wrote:  I forget which one of our theist guests here explained to us that suffering has to happen so that we can appreciate the beauty of heaven.

Sounds like the nonsense PleaseJesus was spouting in his failed attempts to counter the argument of evil.

I think it only fits the strict conservative Jewish belief, but I've heard the idea of there being suffering because people don't follow the covenant to God. It's kind of the same situation as original sin but it's actual actions that could be taken in their minds to make the world better... but it wouldn't

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22-10-2014, 03:36 PM
RE: Suffering and Sacrifice
(22-10-2014 02:52 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I think it only fits the strict conservative Jewish belief, but I've heard the idea of there being suffering because people don't follow the covenant to God. It's kind of the same situation as original sin but it's actual actions that could be taken in their minds to make the world better... but it wouldn't

I agree, it's similar. Again it's suffering for not doing what God wants which begs the same question of why suffering is the "remedy" God chose.

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