Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
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16-07-2017, 07:53 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
If I said I had $100 and it's a half truth do I really have $50 or $200?
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16-07-2017, 08:04 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
Trying to find answers that we don't yet have is kinda what science does. Saying "Science can't explain it, therefore it doesn't exist" is just as fallacious as saying "Science can't explain it, therefore God."
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16-07-2017, 08:58 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
I hear you. I think I've equated other beliefs with religion unfairly. I even thought I might get called on it and you called me on it. I've pretty much exhausted my material on free will and consciousness. I'm very sure of my assertions and DKE suggests that's a sign of stupidity. But maybe I just want to think I'm stupid so I can also think I'm smart. I want to be smart!
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16-07-2017, 09:00 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(16-07-2017 12:07 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Consciousness is just a meaningless word of convenience to describe a purely chemical process. It's not caused by the brain; it is the brain. It's nothing more than the brain. So any word that is not related to the physiology of the brain is describing something that doesn't exist: like gods, and souls, and spirits, and ghosts. Free will and consciousness are illusions that provide an evolutionary advantage. Atoms are not alive. Reading people's desperate attempts to explain the workings of things that don't even exist is becoming tiresome. Unless you think you've been infused with some sort of supernatural magic this should be obvious.
You seem to be misconstruing several ideas. Combustion is a process of burning but you can't build an engine by setting a piece of paper on fire. An engine, like consciousness is more complex than that.

The human mind along with intelligence, problem solving, and consciousness is entirely due to processes in the brain. Dualism is incorrect. I'm not arguing for anything supernatural.

You seem to be repeating Harris' mistake. What evolutionary advantage is achieved by creating an illusion? Secondly, if consciousness is indeed an illusion, what exactly is perceiving this illusion? Is it perceived by another illusion? Awareness can be proven; it isn't a vague or fuzzy term. Consciousness cannot yet be defined but it is not the same as awareness.
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16-07-2017, 11:34 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(16-07-2017 08:58 AM)ImFred Wrote:  I hear you. I think I've equated other beliefs with religion unfairly. I even thought I might get called on it and you called me on it. I've pretty much exhausted my material on free will and consciousness. I'm very sure of my assertions and DKE suggests that's a sign of stupidity. But maybe I just want to think I'm stupid so I can also think I'm smart. I want to be smart!

I'm just smart enough to confess ignorance. Smile
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16-07-2017, 12:26 PM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(16-07-2017 09:00 AM)scientious Wrote:  
(16-07-2017 12:07 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Consciousness is just a meaningless word of convenience to describe a purely chemical process. It's not caused by the brain; it is the brain. It's nothing more than the brain. So any word that is not related to the physiology of the brain is describing something that doesn't exist: like gods, and souls, and spirits, and ghosts. Free will and consciousness are illusions that provide an evolutionary advantage. Atoms are not alive. Reading people's desperate attempts to explain the workings of things that don't even exist is becoming tiresome. Unless you think you've been infused with some sort of supernatural magic this should be obvious.
You seem to be misconstruing several ideas. Combustion is a process of burning but you can't build an engine by setting a piece of paper on fire. An engine, like consciousness is more complex than that.

The human mind along with intelligence, problem solving, and consciousness is entirely due to processes in the brain. Dualism is incorrect. I'm not arguing for anything supernatural.

You seem to be repeating Harris' mistake. What evolutionary advantage is achieved by creating an illusion? Secondly, if consciousness is indeed an illusion, what exactly is perceiving this illusion? Is it perceived by another illusion? Awareness can be proven; it isn't a vague or fuzzy term. Consciousness cannot yet be defined but it is not the same as awareness.

What are you suggesting exactly? Are you suggesting consciousness is something real? What does it mean? What is the difference between a real consciousness and an illusory consciousness? Can you suggest a method that we can determine whether a consciousness is real or not?

I fail to see your point of view regarding consciousness, I'm asking to know.
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16-07-2017, 01:17 PM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(16-07-2017 12:26 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  What are you suggesting exactly? Are you suggesting consciousness is something real? What does it mean? What is the difference between a real consciousness and an illusory consciousness? Can you suggest a method that we can determine whether a consciousness is real or not?

I fail to see your point of view regarding consciousness, I'm asking to know.

According to the casual definition of the term, consciousness is a state of mind a bit like love or anger. The only difference is that consciousness is a much more ''basic'' state of mind than any emotional state of mind. It's the word we use to describe an organism capable of feeling, interracting and thinking about its environment. It's a ''real'' thing in the sense that it can be observed. But it cannot be seperated from the brain since state of minds are the product of brain activity.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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16-07-2017, 04:46 PM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(16-07-2017 12:26 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  What are you suggesting exactly? Are you suggesting consciousness is something real? What does it mean? What is the difference between a real consciousness and an illusory consciousness?

An illusion is an error in the interpretation of some perception. But, again, if consciousness is an illusion then what is perceiving this illusion? The claim that an illusion is perceiving an illusion of itself doesn't make any logical sense.

Quote: Can you suggest a method that we can determine whether a consciousness is real or not?

Yes, if consciousness is not needed then all cognitive functions can be duplicated with computational functions. All you would have to do is build a computer that can think and reason like a human. Curiously, no one since 1956 has been able to do that. We don't even have a computer with rat level intelligence.
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16-07-2017, 05:12 PM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(16-07-2017 04:46 PM)scientious Wrote:  We don't even have a computer with rat level intelligence.

Which brings us back to the fact that we don't know shit yet.

We need to know how our own intelligence works before we can re-create it.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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16-07-2017, 05:16 PM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2017 05:22 PM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(16-07-2017 09:00 AM)scientious Wrote:  Consciousness cannot yet be defined but it is not the same as awareness.

I like to think of consciousness as awareness filtered through a self-concept -- or perhaps awareness of our own subjective experiences, which define us as discrete.
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