Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
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07-07-2017, 09:49 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
Free will - give yourself some credit for how involved and complicated your decision making is.

First you have your DNA and body chemistry. Your instincts, your moods, your level of intelligence, your age, - it's all called up to participate in the decision.

Then you have all your experiences. They are all linked to perceptions of success and failure, like and dislike, and the brain quickly sorts all that and steps up to add another item to your decision making.

You are not aware at all of all of this activity going on. Your free will is just a real time "veto". Like you are the president and can veto the decision made by YOU - not just your conscious thoughts. And whatever small spot that may occupy in your decision making - it is easily outweighed by basic instincts like self preservation, fight or flight etc.

You are not your thoughts. You are a complicated decision making machine. It's quite amazing, really.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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07-07-2017, 10:05 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(07-07-2017 08:30 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You can, but the question is : "Are you consciously aware of all the elements that go into making the choice". The answer to that is "No". If the answer is "no", then how "free" was the choice ?

What makes you define yourself as your consciousness only? I personally think that's a leftover assumption from mind/body dualism.
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07-07-2017, 10:08 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(07-07-2017 09:49 AM)Dom Wrote:  Free will - give yourself some credit for how involved and complicated your decision making is.

First you have your DNA and body chemistry. Your instincts, your moods, your level of intelligence, your age, - it's all called up to participate in the decision.

Then you have all your experiences. They are all linked to perceptions of success and failure, like and dislike, and the brain quickly sorts all that and steps up to add another item to your decision making.

You are not aware at all of all of this activity going on. Your free will is just a real time "veto". Like you are the president and can veto the decision made by YOU - not just your conscious thoughts. And whatever small spot that may occupy in your decision making - it is easily outweighed by basic instincts like self preservation, fight or flight etc.

You are not your thoughts. You are a complicated decision making machine. It's quite amazing, really.

I personally don't think decision making is a summation of causes, as you have outlined. Rather, it's symbolic processing which actually ignores most "causes" altogether, because of its selective focus.
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07-07-2017, 10:17 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(07-07-2017 10:08 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 09:49 AM)Dom Wrote:  Free will - give yourself some credit for how involved and complicated your decision making is.

First you have your DNA and body chemistry. Your instincts, your moods, your level of intelligence, your age, - it's all called up to participate in the decision.

Then you have all your experiences. They are all linked to perceptions of success and failure, like and dislike, and the brain quickly sorts all that and steps up to add another item to your decision making.

You are not aware at all of all of this activity going on. Your free will is just a real time "veto". Like you are the president and can veto the decision made by YOU - not just your conscious thoughts. And whatever small spot that may occupy in your decision making - it is easily outweighed by basic instincts like self preservation, fight or flight etc.

You are not your thoughts. You are a complicated decision making machine. It's quite amazing, really.

I personally don't think decision making is a summation of causes, as you have outlined. Rather, it's symbolic processing which actually ignores most "causes" altogether, because of its selective focus.

I can see how a machine does this, but not something that is largely ruled by chemistry. Explain?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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07-07-2017, 10:31 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(07-07-2017 10:05 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 08:30 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You can, but the question is : "Are you consciously aware of all the elements that go into making the choice". The answer to that is "No". If the answer is "no", then how "free" was the choice ?

What makes you define yourself as your consciousness only? I personally think that's a leftover assumption from mind/body dualism.

That's not what I'm saying. People who *say* they have *free will* think they have the (equal) ability to do "either x or y". If many of the elements that go into the choice are unconscious, assumed or not even examined, then the choice is hardly free.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-07-2017, 10:38 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(07-07-2017 10:17 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 10:08 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  I personally don't think decision making is a summation of causes, as you have outlined. Rather, it's symbolic processing which actually ignores most "causes" altogether, because of its selective focus.

I can see how a machine does this, but not something that is largely ruled by chemistry. Explain?

I am an emergentist rather than a reductionist. In other words, I think decision making should be addressed at the level of symbolic processing rather than reduced to brain chemistry. A normally functioning brain (without traumas or drugs) is not directly influenced by material causes except in how they are conceptualized symbolically, and a material cause is not the same thing as a symbolic cause. When decisions are the result of symbolic processing, most people call that free will.
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07-07-2017, 10:39 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(07-07-2017 10:31 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  People who *say* they have *free will* think they have the (equal) ability to do "either x or y". If many of the elements that go into the choice are unconscious, assumed or not even examined, then the choice is hardly free.

If people are their unconscious as well as their conscious selves, then they are still making the decisions.

I think you are confusing free will and freedom. We have free will even if we only have two bad choices, as long as we can choose one over the other.
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07-07-2017, 11:36 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
Free will is an illusion. A bunch of atoms can't make decisions. It's sort of like no heaven. It seems to be one of those things people don't like to face.
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07-07-2017, 11:41 AM (This post was last modified: 07-07-2017 11:58 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(07-07-2017 10:39 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 10:31 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  People who *say* they have *free will* think they have the (equal) ability to do "either x or y". If many of the elements that go into the choice are unconscious, assumed or not even examined, then the choice is hardly free.

If people are their unconscious as well as their conscious selves, then they are still making the decisions.

I think you are confusing free will and freedom. We have free will even if we only have two bad choices, as long as we can choose one over the other.

The question is, "are we *free* (no matter what choice we make), if many, or even most of the elements at war in a choice are unconscious".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-07-2017, 11:48 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
Believing in a non-chemical / non-physical consciousness is the same as believing in ghosts.
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