Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
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07-07-2017, 11:51 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(07-07-2017 10:38 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 10:17 AM)Dom Wrote:  I can see how a machine does this, but not something that is largely ruled by chemistry. Explain?

I am an emergentist rather than a reductionist. In other words, I think decision making should be addressed at the level of symbolic processing rather than reduced to brain chemistry. A normally functioning brain (without traumas or drugs) is not directly influenced by material causes except in how they are conceptualized symbolically, and a material cause is not the same thing as a symbolic cause. When decisions are the result of symbolic processing, most people call that free will.

Ah, I think the brain (and other physical) chemistry is in charge along with stored information. Symbolic processing seems to be the smallest component of any decision.

That is why I think that AI will be much more logical and real time based than human intelligence. Whether that will always be a plus remains to be seen.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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07-07-2017, 12:28 PM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(07-07-2017 01:08 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I don't know, but I feel like I'm suffering from the dunning-kruger effect and it's not pleasant.

When I think of the dunning-Kruger effect, I think more along the lines of Ken Ham, who has a strong confirmation bias that colors anything he reads and leads him to the same myopic conclusion.

I don't see you as having this same problem.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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07-07-2017, 01:00 PM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
Things would go much smoother if only everyone would agree with me.
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07-07-2017, 01:23 PM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
Have you ever looked at yourself in the mirror and masturbated?

I ask 'cause I kinda feel that way about Sam Harris. I coulda been him if'n I was cool.

In other words, what was the question? Isn't this this a case of "If I'm asking the question I must be healthy?" kinda thing? :/

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07-07-2017, 03:28 PM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(07-07-2017 11:48 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Believing in a non-chemical / non-physical consciousness is the same as believing in ghosts.

I think the evidence for consciousness being dependent on brain chemistry and physical brain structures is conclusive.

However, I also think that the same physical substratum can be used for different varieties of symbolic processing, similar to how the same RAM chip is used for different programs. In other words, I don't think brain chemistry translates directly into decision making except during habitual actions, which are themselves built up over time by conscious choices made during previous symbolic processing. In other words, even apparently unconscious (habitual) actions can have consciousness as their basis, it's just that the consciousness was in the past.

I'm beginning to think many of you don't realize how many of our supposedly direct perceptions of the world are themselves actually symbolic interpretations. (Hint: It does not have to be logical to be symbolic.)
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07-07-2017, 03:39 PM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(07-07-2017 03:28 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 11:48 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Believing in a non-chemical / non-physical consciousness is the same as believing in ghosts.

I think the evidence for consciousness being dependent on brain chemistry and physical brain structures is conclusive.

However, I also think that the same physical substratum can be used for different varieties of symbolic processing, similar to how the same RAM chip is used for different programs. In other words, I don't think brain chemistry translates directly into decision making except during habitual actions, which are themselves built up over time by conscious choices made during previous symbolic processing. In other words, even apparently unconscious (habitual) actions can have consciousness as their basis, it's just that the consciousness was in the past.

I'm beginning to think many of you don't realize how many of our supposedly direct perceptions of the world are themselves actually symbolic interpretations. (Hint: It does not have to be logical to be symbolic.)


I do realize that we probably think symbolic, but the symbols are arrived at by the usual, non-conscious way. It doesn't add any freedom of decision at all.

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07-07-2017, 03:49 PM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(07-07-2017 03:39 PM)Dom Wrote:  I do realize that we probably think symbolic, but the symbols are arrived at by the usual, non-conscious way. It doesn't add any freedom of decision at all.

Again, I don't define free will as freedom. The only thing free will means to me is that I am making the decision. How could I ever be free of myself?
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07-07-2017, 03:58 PM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(07-07-2017 03:49 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 03:39 PM)Dom Wrote:  I do realize that we probably think symbolic, but the symbols are arrived at by the usual, non-conscious way. It doesn't add any freedom of decision at all.

Again, I don't define free will as freedom. The only thing free will means to me is that I am making the decision. How could I ever be free of myself?

Well, no you can't, you are defined by - you.

Are you calling symbols what I call triggers?

So how do you apply this to someone who commits cruelties towards others?

Are they always to be held fully responsible or can they be kept from doing it again without assigning blame if they acted on proven abnormal impulses??

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07-07-2017, 05:03 PM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(07-07-2017 03:28 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 11:48 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Believing in a non-chemical / non-physical consciousness is the same as believing in ghosts.

I think the evidence for consciousness being dependent on brain chemistry and physical brain structures is conclusive.

However, I also think that the same physical substratum can be used for different varieties of symbolic processing, similar to how the same RAM chip is used for different programs. In other words, I don't think brain chemistry translates directly into decision making except during habitual actions, which are themselves built up over time by conscious choices made during previous symbolic processing. In other words, even apparently unconscious (habitual) actions can have consciousness as their basis, it's just that the consciousness was in the past.

I'm beginning to think many of you don't realize how many of our supposedly direct perceptions of the world are themselves actually symbolic interpretations. (Hint: It does not have to be logical to be symbolic.)

I actually took a class in college called "symbolic interactionism"

It was almost as stupid as church. 10,000 words marching around in a clusterfuck of text that when you boiled it down all they were saying is biology isn't really biology and nature isn't nature and ghosts are real. Penis as a social construct bullshit.
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07-07-2017, 05:26 PM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(07-07-2017 03:58 PM)Dom Wrote:  Are you calling symbols what I call triggers?

So how do you apply this to someone who commits cruelties towards others?

Are they always to be held fully responsible or can they be kept from doing it again without assigning blame if they acted on proven abnormal impulses??

I should have asked you, how exactly do you look at the unconscious? Are you a Freudian perhaps?

From my way of looking at human perceptions, we live in, and perceive the world through, our symbolic constructions. So for instance, theists interpret everyday events differently than atheists, and react to them differently too. Basic sensory information is pretty much always interpreted in accordance with some general worldview. That's what I mean by symbolic processing.

You will have to explain to me what you mean by "triggers".

Someone who commits cruelties has likely been lied to or lies to himself. His culpability would depend in part on which it is. Someone could effectively steal his choice by lying to him.

Remember that I predicated this discussion on how normal human brains operate? Those brains which have been traumatized in various ways, or which are malformed, would not meet my definition of free will because people couldn't make their brains operate the way they want. The habits they try to form through conscious efforts don't stick, or are constantly being overturned by dreamlike symbolic processing intruding into their waking world.
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