Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
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08-07-2017, 06:29 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(08-07-2017 06:07 AM)ImFred Wrote:  
Quote:But since scientists do not have any way to understand the symbolic realm of the subjects, their mere thoughts wouldn't be of much value I guess. For example we can have the same thoughts, but since I'm a theist and you are an atheist we make very different decisions. But there is no way for scientists to fully understand our symbolic universe, so they can't really make much sense out of it. Can they?

No. And until we can explain the biological process of anger or reading a comic or driving a car or looking at porn, social scientists and psychologists will make up pretend ways of understanding how we think these things out in made up terms that don't actually describe the chemistry at work. Instead of addressing what is actually happening they're addressing what appears to be happening in religious non-scientific language. The backbone of their mysticism is consciousness which functions as a supernatural entity that explains what is either unknown or uncomfortably difficult in neuroscience.

I see you have a low rating. I don't know for sure but you're probably about to point out that what is conceived as truth about the consciousness is every bit a leap of fate as an afterlife or some other supernatural process. You're right. If that's your intention go on with it because you make a good point. But once you have them trapped in the corner it's time for the insults and bad ratings.

Quote:No. And until we can explain the biological process of anger or reading a comic or driving a car or looking at porn, social scientists and psychologists will make up pretend ways of understanding how we think these things out in made up terms that don't actually describe the chemistry at work. Instead of addressing what is actually happening they're addressing what appears to be happening in religious non-scientific language. The backbone of their mysticism is consciousness which functions as a supernatural entity that explains what is either unknown or uncomfortably difficult in neuroscience.

I agree, I think this sort of stuff is completely "unscientific" and I think these notions will ultimately be completely removed from the scientific literature.

Quote:I see you have a low rating. I don't know for sure but you're probably about to point out that what is conceived as truth about the consciousness is every bit a leap of fate as an afterlife or some other supernatural process. You're right. If that's your intention go on with it because you make a good point. But once you have them trapped in the corner it's time for the insults and bad ratings.
Lol, not really. I was just curious about what Thoreauvian had to say about his notion of free will. However I agree that people are eventually trapped in their delusions. Even if they consciously choose to reject delusional concepts like religion and God, if they look more closely, they will always see that there is more delusions to reject. It's part of the human condition and it seems we can never get rid of them. I personally came to accept the delusions and decided to go on with it. But let's not discuss this here. Maybe we can have a new thread about it?
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08-07-2017, 01:33 PM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(08-07-2017 05:18 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I think your notion of non-determinism just fell into place for me. The simple fact that we consciously select our objectives and we also choose how to reach those objectives in our symbolic universe makes it a free will and non-deterministic, right?

But since scientists do not have any way to understand the symbolic realm of the subjects, their mere thoughts wouldn't be of much value I guess. For example we can have the same thoughts, but since I'm a theist and you are an atheist we make very different decisions. But there is no way for scientists to fully understand our symbolic universe, so they can't really make much sense out of it. Can they?

Yes, selective focus is what allows for free will. We have certain interests we pursue and select out information in accordance with those interests, then react only to that selected information. There is no summation of possible causes in such a scenario, because many possible causes never register with us at all. The world we respond to is therefore a symbolic construct based on highly selected information.

Sleep and dream researcher Dr. Allan Hobson and his assistants got through the subjectivity problem by correlating subjective dream reports with simultaneous objective measurements of electrical activity in various parts of the brain. They were able to correlate the increase in various kinds of mental difficulties (confabulations, memory problems, anxieties) with the deactivation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex during dreaming for instance. So it depends on the researchers and their methodology.
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09-07-2017, 04:16 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(08-07-2017 04:40 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 04:10 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So while most everything around you, including the chemical processes going on inside your brain, are entirely outside of your conscious control....

In other words, when you look around the world you see nothing at all that people have consciously changed? I find that claim quite fantastic.

Further, I deliberately change my brain chemistry every time I go to bed and fall asleep.

Well, how much control do you have over your sleep cycle? Do you have conscious control over the entirety of your environment? Do you have conscious control over your own mental state? Can you will yourself to sleep while under the effects of stimulants like coffee and energy drinks? Can you likewise will yourself out of ever sleeping, tossing aside millions of years of evolution with nothing but your free will? Do you have conscious control over potential genetic or behavior sleep disorders, like insomnia or sleep apnea?

Do you have conscious control over precisely when you are unconscious?

Do you maintain your free will when you are asleep?

I think you have much less control over these things than you think you do. The illusory choice of going to sleep doesn't get you to free will, because you still lack conscious control over the complex chemical reactions that resolves those decisions, let alone their probabilistic outcomes. Sure, you can alter your brain state or even your chemistry, but how much conscious control do you really have over the decision to do so? Especially in light of fMRI scans showing that brains can achieve a consensus on the outcome of a decision seconds before the person is themselves consciously aware of their own 'choice'.

If your brain is coming to conclusions before you are aware of them, how much conscious control do you really have? Do we really want to label that 'free will'?

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09-07-2017, 05:47 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
"in light of fMRI scans showing that brains can achieve a consensus on the outcome of a decision seconds before the person is themselves consciously aware of their own 'choice'. "

People react and make choices within milliseconds.
Sprinters at the blocks hear the gun and consciously send the signal to their legs to push.

Boxers react to punches and make choices of where to counter punch.

Musicians read music and consciously move their fingers to strike notes.

We can also make a conscious decision to not do something, to not react. We can hold our breath. We can calm our minds and relax our bodies. We can choose not be angry.

Tap your hand lightly on a table for as long as you want. At some point, you will make the choice to stop. You are aware instantly of when you make that choice, because you have to consciously stop sending that signal to your hand.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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09-07-2017, 09:15 AM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(08-07-2017 01:33 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  We have certain interests we pursue and select out information in accordance with those interests, then react only to that selected information. There is no summation of possible causes in such a scenario, because many possible causes never register with us at all. The world we respond to is therefore a symbolic construct based on highly selected information.

Ok, I am almost there now.

Our brain selects the interests and appropriate information, not our "free will". That is why the causes never register with us at all.

Think of free will as "the court of appeals". It is usually not consulted at all, and in the cases where it is involved, it is a very small part of the process. This is what I call "real time decision making". It is but a very small part of the decision making process. But it is the only one we are actively aware of.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-07-2017, 12:08 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2017 12:13 PM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(09-07-2017 09:15 AM)Dom Wrote:  Our brain selects the interests and appropriate information, not our "free will". That is why the causes never register with us at all.

Think of free will as "the court of appeals". It is usually not consulted at all, and in the cases where it is involved, it is a very small part of the process. This is what I call "real time decision making". It is but a very small part of the decision making process. But it is the only one we are actively aware of.

This is my response to both Evolutionkills and Dom.

So you are saying our brains are not us? I disagree.

This is my response to the bolded sentence above: As I mentioned before, I don't think defining ourselves only as our consciousness is accurate. It seems to me a holdover from theistic dualism. To me, you are saying "Decisions are not made by us because they are really made by us." That makes no sense to me.

So we are defining free will differently. You say it depends on consciousness. I say free will is about us having the ability to make choices. That is the common usage, unstipulated definition of the word -- at least as far as I am aware.
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09-07-2017, 12:23 PM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(09-07-2017 12:08 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 09:15 AM)Dom Wrote:  Our brain selects the interests and appropriate information, not our "free will". That is why the causes never register with us at all.

Think of free will as "the court of appeals". It is usually not consulted at all, and in the cases where it is involved, it is a very small part of the process. This is what I call "real time decision making". It is but a very small part of the decision making process. But it is the only one we are actively aware of.

This is my response to both Evolutionkills and Dom.

So you are saying our brains are not us? I disagree.

This is my response to the bolded sentence above: As I mentioned before, I don't think defining ourselves only as our consciousness is accurate. It seems to me a holdover from theistic dualism. To me, you are saying "Decisions are not made by us because they are really made by us." That makes no sense to me.

So we are defining free will differently. You say it depends on consciousness. I say free will is about us having the ability to make choices. That is the common usage, unstipulated definition of the word -- at least as far as I am aware.

Ok, so now I have to back up again - you think that we are "responsible" for all our choices and need to be "punished" for unconscious decisions?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-07-2017, 12:28 PM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
Dunning-Kruger affects us all at one point or another. The fact you recognize that you don’t know what you don’t know is huge. Thumbsup

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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09-07-2017, 12:34 PM
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(09-07-2017 12:28 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Dunning-Kruger affects us all at one point or another. The fact you recognize that you don’t know what you don’t know is huge. Thumbsup

One of my often used sayings is that we don't know shit.

100 years ago people were proud of what all they knew and they didn't know shit.

100 years from now people will look at us the same way.

That shouldn't keep us from making conjectures based on what we do know - it's how things get carried a step forward (or not).

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-07-2017, 12:41 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2017 12:46 PM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Suffering from the dunning-kruger effect
(09-07-2017 12:23 PM)Dom Wrote:  Ok, so now I have to back up again - you think that we are "responsible" for all our choices and need to be "punished" for unconscious decisions?

I was just about to add a bit to my previous response, but I will do it here instead since I think it answers your question.

I have also said that the ability to choose depends on symbolic processing. Is symbolic processing occurring when our brains go from REM to NREM in sleep? No, that is biologically determined. Is symbolic processing involved in when we fall asleep? Yes, more often than not, since we go by the time of day and what time we have to get up in the morning.

For you and Evolutionkills, the dividing line between free will and determinism is consciousness. For me it is symbolic processing, including habituated symbolic processing -- what was made into habit and so is now automatic based on processing which happened previously in time. That accounts for a massive amount of "unconscious" activity. And yes, I think you can hold people legally responsible for such bad habits.
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