Suicidal Theist vs. Suicidal Atheist.
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06-09-2012, 03:30 PM
Rainbow Suicidal Theist vs. Suicidal Atheist.
Okay, so I have a theory that I've considered a few times before, and though it seems logical, humans are certainly not always logical. If anyone has evidence I'd be interested to see it. Basically, I think that Atheists would be less likely to commit suicide because Atheists usually also conclude that their is no after-life. With the conclusion that there is no afterlife, it is reasonable to think that a lot of Atheists would want to continue living as long as possible, because hey, this is it. On the other hand, most theists believe in an afterlife, so if they kill themselves, they believe, hey, better luck next life.

There are other variables that I have taken into account, but I don't how how big a role they would play. One is, virtually everywhere, atheism, and atheist are bashed hard, and picked on a lot. This would possibly make (especially young) atheists more likely to be depressed, and from that, more likely to be suicidal. Some atheists just come to the conclusion that their existence is so insignificant that they become depressed and commit suicide.

Another factor to consider is some Theists consider suicide a sin so great that if committed, they will go to hell or some hell facsimile, decreasing suicide.

If you have other factors to consider that I have over-looked, or have figures from a reliable source, please share.

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06-09-2012, 03:48 PM
RE: Suicidal Theist vs. Suicidal Atheist.
In religions where there are no hells or down side to suicide in the after life, you don't see a lot of people killing themselves to get into THEIR heaven.
It's because they KNOW they are here. They aren't so sure about the stories they were told. After all, once you're dead for a while, you're pretty much dead for the rest of your life.

Suicide is usually brought on by pain, a desire to escape this painful, cruel life. What lies beyond is rarely thought about.
Ending this life is usually the main goal. Ending the pain, the sorrow, the regret. I think it's a rare suicide that kills oneself to enter a heaven.
Even suicide bombers do it for martyrdom. They want to gain a real life status. They aren't looking for the virgins right away.
They are still focused on this life and how they will be viewed.

If there were some evidence of a heaven awaiting any of us, then I think there would be plenty of people who would take that train of death and lots of others with them.
Kinda like when people left Europe for the New World (coming to America), they brought their families with them to start a new life.
Suicides & murder would be a family affair instead of an individual choice.

Leaders might choose to bomb their own cities to create a presence in their heaven. Stake their cultural claim to a section of heaven.
But we all know heaven to be this imaginary place, with streets paved with imaginary gold and big titted whores on every corner. (ok, maybe that's just my heaven)

You know what I'm sayin

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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06-09-2012, 03:53 PM
RE: Suicidal Theist vs. Suicidal Atheist.
(06-09-2012 03:30 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Another factor to consider is some Theists consider suicide a sin so great that if committed, they will go to hell or some hell facsimile, decreasing suicide.

I honestly think this may be the biggest reason my mother has not tried very hard to kill herself. Undecided
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06-09-2012, 03:57 PM
RE: Suicidal Theist vs. Suicidal Atheist.
(06-09-2012 03:48 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  But we all know heaven to be this imaginary place, with streets paved with imaginary gold and big titted whores on every corner. (ok, maybe that's just my heaven)

Ummm... Can i be invited?

As far as the suicide, from personal experience, anytime I hear of a suicide it usually coincides with a lot of guilt, a lot of fear, or the want/need for acceptance. Atheism and Theism might play different parts in people's lives, so I don't know if we could directly correlate them with suicides directly. That's why you see a lot of bully driven suicides and LGBT suicides right now, lack of acceptance. Then guilt can be from a lot of things. Guilty from maybe doing something really bad and you don't want to face the consequences. Maybe even survivor's guilt. Fear is classic (sometimes cliche) and can motivate for anything, including suicide. But, I don't know about directly linking either Atheism or Theism to suicide with the exception of the extremists out there of course.

Hope this helps.

And yet another interesting topic I am not interested in.
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06-09-2012, 05:29 PM
RE: Suicidal Theist vs. Suicidal Atheist.
(06-09-2012 03:57 PM)AmishLatinJew Wrote:  
(06-09-2012 03:48 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  But we all know heaven to be this imaginary place, with streets paved with imaginary gold and big titted whores on every corner. (ok, maybe that's just my heaven)

Ummm... Can i be invited?

As far as the suicide, from personal experience, anytime I hear of a suicide it usually coincides with a lot of guilt, a lot of fear, or the want/need for acceptance. Atheism and Theism might play different parts in people's lives, so I don't know if we could directly correlate them with suicides directly. That's why you see a lot of bully driven suicides and LGBT suicides right now, lack of acceptance. Then guilt can be from a lot of things. Guilty from maybe doing something really bad and you don't want to face the consequences. Maybe even survivor's guilt. Fear is classic (sometimes cliche) and can motivate for anything, including suicide. But, I don't know about directly linking either Atheism or Theism to suicide with the exception of the extremists out there of course.

Hope this helps.

Of course, it is impossible to know, for certain, what all the contributing factors for a persons suicide really are, but it is possible to get mounting evidence that supports that certain factors do correlate with a persons suicide. You aptly pointed out one of the contributing factors I mentioned, though I found it hard to determine how much it factors in. Atheists, because of their beliefs, are usually outsiders that do not fit in with the majority of their peers. If they remain silent, the still often feel like outcasts. If the speak up, there are always peers to badmouth them, tell them all sorts of terrible things, or offer to pray for them because they are obviously lost.

Perhaps religion, or the lack of religion, is not a significant contributing factor to people who actually go through with committing suicide, but if it isn't, then that would baffle me. I would think it would be among the most important factors in a person contemplating suicide.

In my younger years...probably between about 13-17 I was always contemplating suicide. I nearly went through with it many times but I always stopped myself, and one of the reasons why is because I didn't believe in an afterlife. I always convinced myself that it may get better too, which it did, but not for many years. Perhaps I am only a small percentage of people that followed that type of thinking.

Thoughts?

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06-09-2012, 06:34 PM
RE: Suicidal Theist vs. Suicidal Atheist.
"The absurd man will not commit suicide; he wants to live, without relinquishing any of his certainty, without a future, without hope, without illusions ... and without resignation either. He stares at death with passionate attention and this fascination liberates him. He experiences the 'divine irresponsibility' of the condemned man." - Sartre

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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06-09-2012, 06:39 PM
RE: Suicidal Theist vs. Suicidal Atheist.
Hey, Dark Light.

The issue I have with this is that it's actually quite a simple matter to test this; quantitatively or qualitatively. My issue is that you seem to have gone past hypothesis to the point where you think it works this way. That's bad science. Maybe you just meant to say, "I have a hypothesis," which would be much better, but you've generated your hypothesis before seeing any data. I could say, "I think that Atheists are more likely to be murderers than Theists," but it's just conjecture, like what you've said. All I mean by that is that you've put the cart before the horse. You should be looking at the data and then trying to figure out why it's so.

We have to be careful using terms like, "it seems logical," or, "it's reasonable to assume."

I think what you're suggesting is an interesting line of thought. I just think that you might want to come at it a different way.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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06-09-2012, 07:22 PM
RE: Suicidal Theist vs. Suicidal Atheist.
(06-09-2012 06:39 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Dark Light.

The issue I have with this is that it's actually quite a simple matter to test this; quantitatively or qualitatively. My issue is that you seem to have gone past hypothesis to the point where you think it works this way. That's bad science. Maybe you just meant to say, "I have a hypothesis," which would be much better, but you've generated your hypothesis before seeing any data. I could say, "I think that Atheists are more likely to be murderers than Theists," but it's just conjecture, like what you've said. All I mean by that is that you've put the cart before the horse. You should be looking at the data and then trying to figure out why it's so.

We have to be careful using terms like, "it seems logical," or, "it's reasonable to assume."

I think what you're suggesting is an interesting line of thought. I just think that you might want to come at it a different way.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

You are right, I should've said "I have a hypothesis". Sorry, for the confusion. As I stated, along with "it seems logical" people are often illogical, so it could very well be incorrect. As for data, I have none. I was hoping someone here might know where to find the data. Of course even if you have data that indicates peoples personal beliefs correlates with suicide percentages (or something to that effect) it would neither prove, nor disprove my hypothesis. However, we could draw new hypothesis from that information, especially if the data is counter to the hypothesis that I proposed.

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06-09-2012, 07:47 PM
RE: Suicidal Theist vs. Suicidal Atheist.
Let's say you found data that many suicides happen in large cities that also have a large body of water near them
or that suicides happen more often in people who know how to swim
and let's add in that a large percentage who were successful at suicide didn't own boats.

But most people would probably say the contributing factor in the suicide was something more personal.
The person had issues that they couldn't deal with, pain, depression, bullying, etc
Suicide is an end. It's a way out.

From an atheist point of view - It's a way out. All of this ends
From a theist point of view - It's a way out. "I'll deal with hell or god or whatever lies beyond this life, but right now I can't deal with this"

I speak on this topic, because I've been there. I've been through suicide.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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06-09-2012, 08:52 PM
RE: Suicidal Theist vs. Suicidal Atheist.
(06-09-2012 07:47 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Let's say you found data that many suicides happen in large cities that also have a large body of water near them
or that suicides happen more often in people who know how to swim
and let's add in that a large percentage who were successful at suicide didn't own boats.

But most people would probably say the contributing factor in the suicide was something more personal.
The person had issues that they couldn't deal with, pain, depression, bullying, etc
Suicide is an end. It's a way out.

From an atheist point of view - It's a way out. All of this ends
From a theist point of view - It's a way out. "I'll deal with hell or god or whatever lies beyond this life, but right now I can't deal with this"

I speak on this topic, because I've been there. I've been through suicide.

I'm sorry Rahn, I don't understand the point you were trying to make with the post. If it was to show that religious beliefs can't be proven to be a contributing factor, I think we've covered that ground already. If it was to show that it is not likely a relevant factor because it isn't personal enough, I would have to disagree. Taking your life is the ultimate way to test your beliefs, whether that is the reason for it or not, you better believe that is something that goes through your head before you end yourself. If it was something other then those two things I just didn't get it.

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