Suicide, the one-way ticket to heaven?
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28-09-2010, 07:38 AM
 
RE: Suicide, the one-way ticket to heaven?
(28-09-2010 06:48 AM)wheels5894 Wrote:  I came across
This expanation
which is a bit puzzling but would certaunly convince a Christian the suicide was sinful.

More of the same old hand-waving. Same stuff, different words - if being saved guarantees you heaven, why hang around this world when you can go to eternal joy in heaven? Because the churches would depopulate themselves!
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28-09-2010, 07:42 AM
 
RE: Suicide, the one-way ticket to heaven?
I quite agree with you on this one. The webpage I linked to seemed to suggest that suicide was assumed that could not point to any specific place in which the Bible said this was the case. Indeed quoting Paul we talked about how nothing, including suicide, and in a separate people from the love of God. If that was the case, then the point of this whole thread is true -- that suicide is the best and quickest way to get to heaven.

However deciding that suicide is not a banned occupation and that it really does take you straight to heaven is only the first half of the discussion. the second part is about why Christians who say they are so keen to get to heaven on also keen to get there sooner. I can only think that in some ways they don't really quite believe the Bible that they read and maybe don't really quite believe there is a heaven to go to. Maybe one will tell us their own reasons about this.

Does anyone know if the suicide of specific be banned in the Quran?
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28-09-2010, 09:06 AM
 
RE: Suicide, the one-way ticket to heaven?
I can't speak authoritatively on the consequences of suicide (other than you die). But I can give you my reason for wanting to live when I am convinced of an eternity in heaven.

If you truly study the Gospel, you will see that "salvation" is not what the church teaches it to be. You know "when you die you get to go to heaven..." That is not what Jesus taught. It is not a false statement, but it's just one piece of the whole pie. As a believer who has accepted Jesus as my savior, I am saved and will go to heaven when I die. But the best part is that I can participate in his kingdom right now, while I'm still alive. "Eternal Life" is not "die and go to heaven". Check out John 17:3 for the true, clear, unquestionable definition of eternal life. I have it right now, why would I want to go anywhere else?

Other reasons I don't just want to kill myself to go to heaven right now (assuming I wouldn't go to hell) are:

- I have a purpose on this earth that is not yet fulfilled (Matthew 28:18-20)
- I have to take care of my kingdom here on earth (wife, possibly future kids, pets, household)
- I believe that part of my time on earth is to get better acquainted with my soul, which will be the only thing left (along with my new glorified body) once I go to heaven. If I do not get to know my soul, when I die I won't recognize myself any more!

So those are my reasons why I just don't kill myself. What are some of yours?
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28-09-2010, 12:08 PM
RE: Suicide, the one-way ticket to heaven?
Quote:So those are my reasons why I just don't kill myself. What are some of yours?

Both my wife and I are worth more dead than alive and I'll be damned if I'm going to go first and let her get all the cash. This is also the reason I never walk down a flight of stairs with her directly behind me.

I'm also not depressed and have no desire to take a permanent step like die. I don't believe in an afterlife and try to make the most of the time I have. I spent it with my wife, my sons, my friends, my parents, my sister and her family, even my dog. I enjoy all the time we have together and the things we share. Why would I want to end it?

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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29-09-2010, 01:48 AM
 
RE: Suicide, the one-way ticket to heaven?
As an atheist, the question is not "Why not kill yourself?" - it's "Why kill yourself?" If we disbelieve in an afterlife, then this is all that we have. Sure, there always are problems but there are many wonderful things about being alive, as well.

Presumably, some people - theist or atheist - find themselves unable to cope with their problems and off themselves. This often is an incredibly selfish act, as it causes massive distress on the part of those friends and family left alive. An acquaintance of mine killed himself (apparently in part as a result of changing anti-depressant drugs) a few years ago, and his close friends are still suffering from that loss. The cliche is that 'suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem'.

The only time suicide makes any sense to me is someone with a terminal illness, experiencing enormous pain, with the prospect of it going on for years at great cost to everyone, and virtually zero hope for any recovery.
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29-09-2010, 05:58 AM
 
RE: Suicide, the one-way ticket to heaven?
(28-09-2010 09:06 AM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  So those are my reasons why I just don't kill myself. What are some of yours?

Because my will to live is simply stronger than my will to die. I still feel that this life is full of wonderful and joyous things. I have more to see and do. i want to wake up a civilian again, and have the joy of waking my wife up to coffee and breakfast.

Simply put, I want to go back to normal life and doing that requires that I hang around for a while longer.

(ETA: Besides, I see much more beer in my future. Glorious bottles from hundreds of different brands...why deprive my taste-buds of the pleasure of discovery?)
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29-09-2010, 07:09 AM
 
RE: Suicide, the one-way ticket to heaven?
(28-09-2010 09:06 AM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  I can't speak authoritatively on the consequences of suicide (other than you die). But I can give you my reason for wanting to live when I am convinced of an eternity in heaven.

If you truly study the Gospel, you will see that "salvation" is not what the church teaches it to be. You know "when you die you get to go to heaven..." That is not what Jesus taught. It is not a false statement, but it's just one piece of the whole pie. As a believer who has accepted Jesus as my savior, I am saved and will go to heaven when I die. But the best part is that I can participate in his kingdom right now, while I'm still alive. "Eternal Life" is not "die and go to heaven". Check out John 17:3 for the true, clear, unquestionable definition of eternal life. I have it right now, why would I want to go anywhere else?

Other reasons I don't just want to kill myself to go to heaven right now (assuming I wouldn't go to hell) are:

- I have a purpose on this earth that is not yet fulfilled (Matthew 28:18-20)
- I have to take care of my kingdom here on earth (wife, possibly future kids, pets, household)
- I believe that part of my time on earth is to get better acquainted with my soul, which will be the only thing left (along with my new glorified body) once I go to heaven. If I do not get to know my soul, when I die I won't recognize myself any more!

So those are my reasons why I just don't kill myself. What are some of yours?

here's a thought for your. You may have lots of other things that you would like to to do or to achieve yet if you think about the life of Jesus he spent only three years of his life before his death. Think about how much more he might have achieved had he stayed alive for longer. There again Jesus we are told is God was in fact I'm planning his own death God was, in a manner, committing suicide too.

It seems to me that any human is not going to achieve as much as a God walking on Earth so maybe attempt to make a difference is not so important. Maybe getting to heaven is the key thing that Christians need to do.
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29-09-2010, 08:50 AM
 
RE: Suicide, the one-way ticket to heaven?
Quote:here's a thought for your. You may have lots of other things that you would like to to do or to achieve yet if you think about the life of Jesus he spent only three years of his life before his death. Think about how much more he might have achieved had he stayed alive for longer.

You may have not said this exactly, but it made me think of something. I've seen this point come up many times on this forum. In general, the point can be summarized as: "Why did God choose to do X this way?" "Why didn't he do it THAT way, it would have made much more sense." Does anybody here see the irrelevance of this argument? Just because someone does not do something the way YOU would, does not mean his way is wrong, or illogical. I don't know why Jesus' public ministry only lasted 3 years, but I believe that it was the perfect amount of time for him to say and do what he did because that is how long it took. No one can say with any certainty that more or less time would be better. You can have an opinion, but it cannot be proven correct.

Quote:There again Jesus we are told is God was in fact I'm planning his own death God was, in a manner, committing suicide too.

When Jesus was born on earth, he gave up his spiritual being to become fully human. He was a dude just like you and me. God was not killing himself. He was sacrificing his human son for me (and you too!).
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29-09-2010, 09:08 AM
 
RE: Suicide, the one-way ticket to heaven?
(29-09-2010 08:50 AM)BarleyMcFlexo Wrote:  
Quote:here's a thought for your. You may have lots of other things that you would like to to do or to achieve yet if you think about the life of Jesus he spent only three years of his life before his death. Think about how much more he might have achieved had he stayed alive for longer.

[quote]
You may have not said this exactly, but it made me think of something. I've seen this point come up many times on this forum. In general, the point can be summarized as: "Why did God choose to do X this way?" "Why didn't he do it THAT way, it would have made much more sense." Does anybody here see the irrelevance of this argument? Just because someone does not do something the way YOU would, does not mean his way is wrong, or illogical. I don't know why Jesus' public ministry only lasted 3 years, but I believe that it was the perfect amount of time for him to say and do what he did because that is how long it took. No one can say with any certainty that more or less time would be better. You can have an opinion, but it cannot be proven correct.

well, are saying that we can leave something like this in the inscrutable thoughts of God hardly takes is any father at all. One thing we've learned from science that the universe was created by an intelligent being we can understand that intelligence ourselves. We've encountered and pick how life works -- we can understand how planets move and how matter convert to energy and back. Thus it would not be unreasonable for us to ask why Jesus public ministry was such a short period of time. The fact is that Jesus' ministry might have lasted considerably longer and, maybe, to more peoples than just Israel -- an omniscient God would have known that Israel would, in the main, have rejected Jesus. The suggestion that an individual ordinary human can make as much difference as Jesus would appear to be a strange one for a Christian to make.

Quote:There again Jesus we are told is God was in fact I'm planning his own death God was, in a manner, committing suicide too.

Quote:When Jesus was born on earth, he gave up his spiritual being to become fully human. He was a dude just like you and me. God was not killing himself. He was sacrificing his human son for me (and you too!).

one point Jesus being an ordinary do you like you and me - you might like to look back at your Patristics as the controversies surrounding the church council Chalcedon in 450 CE as much of the controversy concerned the two natures of Jesus -- human nature and his God nature. The councils before and and Chalcedon decided to stick with question and not give an answer so they declared that Jesus was both God and man in one body.

Would you care to review your answer based on this please?
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29-09-2010, 09:20 AM
 
RE: Suicide, the one-way ticket to heaven?
Quote:Would you care to review your answer based on this please?

I definitely want to answer you. Please do not take this as an insult, but I found it very difficult to read your post (I assume english is not your first language?) so I fear that since I do not understand your point, I won't be able to answer correctly. Can you rephrase?
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