Summing up the Ham on Nye debate, Buddy style, hold the mayo
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05-02-2014, 11:01 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2014 11:11 PM by Buddy Christ.)
Summing up the Ham on Nye debate, Buddy style, hold the mayo
Yes, the title was a joke meant to sound like a sandwich.

For those of you that don't want to listen to the whole 2 hour debate, allow me to sum it up for you.

This of course is a continuation of that "legendary" "debate" between "creation scientists" and "evolutionists" to determine whether or not the "theory" of evolution should be "taught" in classrooms. If the evolutionists win, of course, we expect evolution to be taught in churches.

[Image: Evolution-vs-Creation.png]



Here's the video if you want to follow along.






Pre-debate: The first thing I heard about the debate was on a christian radio show on the drive home this morning. They declared that Ken Ham made Bill Nye look foolish and that Bill Nye's shoddy and bumbling performance caused some liberal to start drinking. Then a bunch of people from West Virginia called in who sounded suspiciously like Herbert from Family Guy and somehow ended up complaining about Obamacare. Let's see if they're right.

-Introductions are made and Ken Ham goes first. He starts off with a bunch of recorded videos of "creation scientists" as if to say "Some of my best friends are creationists." It's an argument from authority. Look, these men are real scientists and they believe the same thing I do!

-19:00 Next Ham on Whole Wheat tries to redefine words, aka moving the goal posts. If you know you can't kick a 50 yard field goal, then perhaps you should redefine what "50 yards" really means. He starts with the word "science," (because it has been "hijacked by secularists") claiming that science means "knowledge," but that there are different types of knowledge.


-20:48 "Public school textbooks are using the same word science for observational and historical science. They arbitrarily define science as naturalism and outlaw the supernatural. They present molecules-to-man evolution as fact. They are imposing the religion of naturalism/atheism on generations of students."

Okay. Here we go. Science is science. It's not microevolution and macroevolution or observational and historical science. It's evolution and science. Ham keeps using these two themes for his whole debate - that we can't know how things came to be because "we weren't there" and he keeps using the term molecules-to-man evolution as if it's different from what he calls "observable" evolution. Since we can't observe a process that happened over millions of years within the span of a human lifetime, then it's not really evolution. They want to outlaw the supernatural? No shit. It's science class, not witchcraft and pixie dust class. The "religion of naturalism" - which is also known as atheism. Atheism, a term used to describe people who have no religion... is a religion that bases faith in naturalism. Everything is a religion to these people and everything takes faith. That's just how their mind is programmed.



Ham's defense of historical science using his masterful "were you there?" technique is best summed up by this video, which actually came out before the debate as tips for Bill Nye.

Start at the 6:25 mark






-21:40 Ham is already pulling out the Bible verses as evidence. John 3:14 said and so clearly there is life after death. Oh, but creationism is NOT religion, it's science. The debate should have ended right here.


-25:00 Bill Nye is up now and he apparently knew what to expect because he jumps right into a smiling reference to the show CSI and how they determine what happened by the evidence they find in front of them and that we trust these conclusions enough to convict a person to prison.


-25:15 Bill lists all the stupidities of Noah's Ark since Ham is a literal creationist ("8 zookeepers for 14,000 individual animals"), so he must also believe in this story. Then Bill warns that we may hear about a flood causing the Grand Canyon (which Ham does in fact bring up with the rock solid defense, "Were you there? Then how do you know how it was formed?" So far, I see no "nerdy bumbling" or lack of social skills. He actually looks quite confident and is making his points with humor and efficiency.


End of the first round of speaking and we will take a break.

Final note, when your views are so extreme that Pat Robertson tells you to shut up before "we make a joke of ourselves," maybe you should reevaluate your life.

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06-02-2014, 12:31 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2014 12:36 AM by Buddy Christ.)
RE: Summing up the Ham on Nye debate, Buddy style, hold the mayo
Back to the retardation side. Here's the video again if happen to be following along.






-28:45 Ham again starts with videos of creation scientists, specifically a video from the guy who invented the MRI machine "through the grace of God." The MRI guy states that "the idea that scientists who believe the earth is 6,000 years old cannot do real science is simply wrong." Well that's great, but no one has even considered that idea. No one says that being a young earth creationist disqualifies you from the scientific field. It was a priest that came up with the Big Bang theory. No one is resisting your scientific work because of your religious beliefs. I've never even heard of such a thing. Fun fact - the same creation scientists in the videos are also the ones listed on the Creation Scientists thread that are sourced from answersingenesis. Ham claims that the next guy designed a part for an expensive satellite "yet he's a biblical creationist." I still don't see where you're going, Ham.


-31:00 There are lots of creationists in the science community who are "afraid to speak out" because of the media and the atheist communities. "I agree that's a real problem," says Ken Ham. "We need to have freedom to speak on these topics," he says freely as he speaks on these topics in front of hundreds of thousands of viewers.


-31:30 The scientific formula uses Laws of Logic, Laws of Nature, etc. "So where did these laws come from?" I do believe he just drew a card straight from the Argument from Ignorance deck.


-35:00ish Hammy boy claims that we are all presented with the same evidence, the same Grand Canyon to look at, the same universe, the same results, but it's just that we interpret the data differently. Which could be true, if it wasn't a matter of "interpretation." If we are both presented with 4 + 4, and I say 8 and you say 197, it's not that you "interpreted the data differently," it's that you're wrong. No math teacher is going to give me credit for my different viewpoint regarding the answer. If we agree that a method used to determine the age of objects is accurate, yet you suddenly disagree when it conflicts with your strange religious beliefs, you're wrong. It's that simple.


-38:00ish Ham says in a convoluted way that cats never evolve into dogs, which verifies what the Bible says about each species stays "after its kind." He also tries to use this as a Noah's Ark defense, saying you wouldn't need a bunch of animals, you would only need two of each. I shouldn't need a rebuttal for this.


-40:06 Ham then continues with a chart that looks suspiciously look an evolutionary tree, which you soon realize IS an evolutionary tree... with a puddle separating the pre and post-global flood. I don't know if he realizes that's he's saying that we all evolved ("because there's an incredible amount of variation in the genes"), but he does include the stipulation "dogs remained dogs." As usual, a misunderstanding of evolution.


-Ham also keeps doing the thing where he "poses a question" for the other guy (do they give a class to theists on how to "debate"?), but thus far has not done the "he has yet to answer my question!"


-47:00 Evolution apparently doesn't explain where all the races came from, but the Bible does (47:18 has a lovely Bible explanation picture) with the Tower of Babel, even the Bible only ever says that God "confounded the (one) language of the earth and scattered them across the earth." It doesn't say he made them all different races. Even it did, it's still a story about a genie who was frightened by a tall tower and cursed human beings with a spell.


-48:17 Ham keeps subtly changing the definition of science and evolution one word at a time. Now we're up to "they are being used to impose an anti-God religion on generations of unsuspecting students." An anti-God religion? Imposed on unsuspecting students? I'm pretty sure when people walk into science class, they aren't taken aback with heathen propaganda and Satanic physics formulas. He goes on to complain that students are being "indoctrinated" by science without being crushed under the weight of incredible irony.


-51:02 "I believe it's the creationists that should be educating the kids out there because we're teaching them the right way to think."


-52:00 "If there was a global flood, you'd expect to find billions of dead things buried in rock layers all over the earth and what do we find? Billions of dead things buried..." A flood that lasts a year does not cause the different layers of rocks that we find underground. I've said it before. Religion is for people who don't understand science.


-53:00 "God created marriage by the way. That's where marriage comes from. Everything we do is because of Genesis. Why is there sin in the world? Why is there death? Why do we wear clothes? Why did Jesus hang on the cross?" Okay, maybe it goes further than science. Religion is for people who don't understand simple things. People wore clothes before Christianity and Judaism. We wore them because we were cold and didn't want to die. There's death because there's life. Jesus hung on the cross because he was a dick to the Romans (join the club).


-55:00 Ken uses more bible verses, then tries to defend the idea that this won't be religion taught in schools by claiming that science is simply personal ideology being pushed on others, so it's the same thing as religion - the religion of naturalism of course.


-56:00 Then he completely loses any credibility (he wasn't too bad so far) by saying without the authority of God, what's to stop us from killing off old people just for the hell of it and having abortions for fun? So what I'm gathering is that we need to teach kids God in science class because we're terrible at doing our jobs as parents. Ham ends with unabated proselytizing - God loves you and cares for you (what does this have to do with the debate?).


-Switch to Bill Nye's turn with joke from moderator that Larry King has been around a long time and that if you wanted someone who was there, you could just ask him-


-Time for a poop break-

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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06-02-2014, 02:49 AM
RE: Summing up the Ham on Nye debate, Buddy style, hold the mayo
I don't want my summary to be as long as the video itself, so let's speed up.






Bill starts off with the big guns. Fossils, rock layer formation, ice layers, tree rings, Grand Canyon formation (how come there aren't Grand Canyons everywhere if caused by a global flood?), how did kangaroos get to and from the Ark, why aren't there kangaroo fossils in between Australia and Israel if they made a journey? Ken Pot Roast basically poured a bucket of water on Nye's head and said, "If Poseidon doesn't exist, how can you explain all this water?" To which Bill pulled out a towel, calmly and methodically dried himself off and replied, "What water?"


-1:08:00 To get from Ken's 7,000 "kinds" to the 16 million we have now, there would have to be 11 new species every day.


-1:11:11 World's actual biggest wooden ship was manned by 14 skilled sailors and built by shipwrights and sunk in heavy seas because wooden ships twist and leak, yet Noah and his unskilled family built one twice as large and settled safely in mountains.


-1:17:30 This is the part the Christian radio station described as one of his rambling, nonsensical tangents about stomach bacteria and minnow sex. It's very obvious to me (a non-retard) that he's explaining why we all don't self-reproduce since it's easier than sex. Scientific prediction verses results.


-1:21:00 Instead of explaining why the Big Bang should be taught over creationism, Bill just starts explaining the Big Bang theory itself. Which is probably the first time most of these people have heard the actual theory, rather than a preacher going, "Nothing caused nothing to explode into something."


-They enter the "rebuttal" phase-


-Ham: You can't observe the age of the earth because that's "historical science." Trying to separate up obvious observable science and predictive and deductive science. Apparently we can only ever know things that are in the present.

-Ham: Age-determining methods are flawed and give false readings. You can't know the age of something because "you weren't there."

-Nye: The methods aren't flawed. You are looking into the past right now. Light reflects off of me and back into your eyes, so technically the further you are away, the younger the version of you I'm seeing. There's no "historical" and "natural" law separation dividing line.

-Ham: You weren't there to see the ice form layers. Noah might have been a skilled sailor.

-Nye: You didn't address any of my questions. What about the 11 species a day requirement? Noah didn't have superpowers. Scientific predictions are derived from previous successful predictions, not just made up on the spot. I can't accept that the whole world changed and started over in a flood 4,000 years ago. What about all the religious people who believe in evolution? What would you have them think? Stop quoting the New Testament as science, I'm not a theologian. If you can prove that the microwave radiation is not from the Big Bang, then please, write your scientific paper, bring it on. I challenge and encourage you to do so.


-Move to audience questions-

That's pretty much it. Not only did Nye do a fine job, he was very entertaining. Ham at least didn't piss me off once like most theists tend to do. All in all, I feel nothing was accomplished.



[Image: bill-nye10.jpg]

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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06-02-2014, 08:43 AM
RE: Summing up the Ham on Nye debate, Buddy style, hold the mayo
OK but if it's gonna be hot Ham on Nye, I say go heavy on the cheese....

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06-02-2014, 06:09 PM
RE: Summing up the Ham on Nye debate, Buddy style, hold the mayo
There are some people in my fossil evidence for human evolution class that actually went to the debate. They obviously weren't paying attention like you were. They described Nye as not having such a strong presence.
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07-02-2014, 05:01 PM
RE: Summing up the Ham on Nye debate, Buddy style, hold the mayo
The "were you there" retort is so ridiculous to me that it actually stuns me to silence because I'm busy trying to keep my brain from exploding instead of responding.

Then, once my brain is secure, it makes me want to troll and ask "were you there" for every single thing. "Jenny bought a phone at the store." "Really? WERE YOU THERE?"
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07-02-2014, 11:36 PM
RE: Summing up the Ham on Nye debate, Buddy style, hold the mayo
(07-02-2014 05:01 PM)Deerdra Wrote:  The "were you there" retort is so ridiculous to me that it actually stuns me to silence because I'm busy trying to keep my brain from exploding instead of responding.

Then, once my brain is secure, it makes me want to troll and ask "were you there" for every single thing. "Jenny bought a phone at the store." "Really? WERE YOU THERE?"

Pretty much speaks for that clown's arguments. I mean, it *REALLY IS* the best he can do. Really. Hobo

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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07-02-2014, 11:59 PM
Summing up the Ham on Nye debate, Buddy style, hold the mayo
When I hear The Hamster speak it sounds like he target audience are 8 year olds. Although, that could be said for many preachers...

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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08-02-2014, 08:19 AM
RE: Summing up the Ham on Nye debate, Buddy style, hold the mayo
(07-02-2014 11:59 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  When I hear The Hamster speak it sounds like he target audience are 8 year olds. Although, that could be said for many preachers...

I can't look at him without getting the willies for the same reason.

Also, I had commented to a friend who was watching the debate that he looks like he's a Raptor Jesus porn fetishist. I mean, how much you wanna bet he's got an animatronic Raptor Jesus in that museum somewhere?
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08-02-2014, 08:35 AM
RE: Summing up the Ham on Nye debate, Buddy style, hold the mayo
I thought Bill did a good job overall.

One of the only problems I had with his approach, and he did this quite a few times as I remember, is that when he was responding to one of Ham's idiotic points, he would personalize his response. He used the phrase, "As a reasonable man, I can not accept that" or something similar.

What this communicates, I think, to the mostly science denying audience, is that Nye is pitting his personal opinion against the Bible. All the creationist audience members have to do, is think to themselves, "well, I'm a reasonable man/woman also, and I agree with the Bible". Because, obviously, everyone considers themselves and their beliefs to be reasonable.

What I believe Nye should have said instead, should have been something like, "all of science, and the available evidence disagrees with your point".
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