Superior/Inferior Cultures?
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08-04-2015, 03:05 PM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
(08-04-2015 02:35 PM)Blackout Wrote:  I'm surprised most are basically saying human rights are good and human rights contribute to a better culture when:

- There is no evidence universal rights exist, except for a piece of paper that looks nice and the first article starts with the most complete utter bullshit I've ever read

- Western culture has engaged and still engages in terrible human rights violations - Torture, invasion of foreign countries, slavery, sexism, racism, homophobia, class struggles, etc.

This is all too true. No where on earth does heaven exist. But, it is also true that societies that have such sentiments and make the genuine effort to use those sentiments as a general guide to behavior (even when inadequately followed) are superior (in my judgement) to those societies that have no concern about individual rights.

Compare the records of nations where human rights are respected and nations that have no problem with violating those rights. Would you want to live under Sharia Law? or under the domination by the Medieval Church? Or would you rather live in America?

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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08-04-2015, 03:11 PM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
I wasn't arguing that western culture isn't better than other non-western cultures like Sharia theocracies but my point is that there are better reasons for that than simply human rights, a vague unfulfilled concept that no country in the world can exercise correctly.

And honestly after hearing some things about America in atheist forums I have no intention of living there

I was also saying that we have lots of flaws - How many people know that Sweden used to sterilize people just a few years ago? - Sweden, the pinnacle of human rights, multiculturalism and perfection - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_..._in_Sweden

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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08-04-2015, 03:30 PM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
(08-04-2015 02:02 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(08-04-2015 10:49 AM)666wannabe Wrote:  We might begin with:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator [Natural Processes] with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness".

Sounds like pretty good criteria.

It may indeed sound like a good criteria to you, but it's still pretty arbitrary.

I think this is boiled down to a value metric. There's values that differ from peoples perspectives and in total a societies as well. The Declaration there is pointing out things more about liberty, fairness, and happiness; however, those ideas of secular views aren't generally valuing the same things a Religious view is valuing. The religious ones still want their authoritarian god trust and some loyalty to it as a premier value.

So both cultures are generally going to be better at achieving their own ideal values better than ones not as actively reaching to achieve them.

Personally I find Tradition, sanctity, and loyalty not as worthy to be taken seriously as plenty of others. But I also want to recognize that is not so for all.

Tradition, sanctity, and loyalty don't require government imposition - they are personal choices. A government concerned with those is over-reaching.

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08-04-2015, 11:51 PM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
(08-04-2015 03:05 PM)666wannabe Wrote:  Compare the records of nations where human rights are respected and nations that have no problem with violating those rights. Would you want to live under Sharia Law? or under the domination by the Medieval Church? Or would you rather live in America?
Are you asking as a white male or as a minority?
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09-04-2015, 06:01 AM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
(08-04-2015 11:51 PM)Pickup_shonuff Wrote:  
(08-04-2015 03:05 PM)666wannabe Wrote:  Compare the records of nations where human rights are respected and nations that have no problem with violating those rights. Would you want to live under Sharia Law? or under the domination by the Medieval Church? Or would you rather live in America?
Are you asking as a white male or as a minority?

I am a white male American. While it is absolutely true that it has taken many years for us to reach the point we are at now in regard to the respect for human rights and we still have a ways to go, there has been steady progress towards that Ideal.

I have used the American experience only as an example, to represent the movement of modern Western-style democracies towards respect for the rights of the individual over the perceived needs of the state.

An indication of this latter point is the United Nation's Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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12-04-2015, 10:38 PM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
Superior/inferior to what?

If you can't answer that question, along with providing some metric by which to measure, then your question is a lot like asking "which tires are the best?"

If the metric is human rights or more appropriately, respect for property (of which, our own bodies is included), then I don't see a lot of difference in any two human cultures you want to compare.

It may be true that people in the US don't stone their daughters to death but they do sentence them to about 13 years of individualism crushing indoctrination camps where they are taught to obey arbitrary authority and recite inane facts and lies about the nation state in which they live. Americans also have a sadistic obsession with violence that's manifest in sports, the various wars being fought, ostensibly on everything from drugs to being poor to doing, well... EXACTLY what the US government does to people both within and without its borders.

You can argue that Sharia law is Draconian but the fact is that US police have murdered more than 115 people in the past 40 days, most of which have lost their lives because their killer "feared for his life". US police also murder so many family pets that few police departments are introducing programs designed to train cops how to avoid killing innocent dogs with reckless abandon.

Add to that the fundamentally insane notion that people who cannot be trusted to choose which substances to put into their own bodies can somehow be trusted to decide what perfect strangers can and cannot do with their own property and, again, I don't see a minute's difference between Sharia law and US law.

After all, I measure the quality of a person or society's character not by what they say but by what they do. And the fact is that most western cultures are just as murderous and insane as any given eastern culture.

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12-04-2015, 10:52 PM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
(12-04-2015 10:38 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Superior/inferior to what?

If you can't answer that question, along with providing some metric by which to measure, then your question is a lot like asking "which tires are the best?"

If the metric is human rights or more appropriately, respect for property (of which, our own bodies is included), then I don't see a lot of difference in any two human cultures you want to compare.

It may be true that people in the US don't stone their daughters to death but they do sentence them to about 13 years of individualism crushing indoctrination camps where they are taught to obey arbitrary authority and recite inane facts and lies about the nation state in which they live. Americans also have a sadistic obsession with violence that's manifest in sports, the various wars being fought, ostensibly on everything from drugs to being poor to doing, well... EXACTLY what the US government does to people both within and without its borders.

You can argue that Sharia law is Draconian but the fact is that US police have murdered more than 115 people in the past 40 days, most of which have lost their lives because their killer "feared for his life". US police also murder so many family pets that few police departments are introducing programs designed to train cops how to avoid killing innocent dogs with reckless abandon.

Add to that the fundamentally insane notion that people who cannot be trusted to choose which substances to put into their own bodies can somehow be trusted to decide what perfect strangers can and cannot do with their own property and, again, I don't see a minute's difference between Sharia law and US law.

After all, I measure the quality of a person or society's character not by what they say but by what they do. And the fact is that most western cultures are just as murderous and insane as any given eastern culture.

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12-04-2015, 11:00 PM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
Yup. Been pretty busy but I'm still here. Haven't been on this forum for while though so I thought I'd stop in and see if I could piss some statists off for old time's sake. :-)

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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12-04-2015, 11:05 PM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
(12-04-2015 11:00 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Yup. Been pretty busy but I'm still here. Haven't been on this forum for while though so I thought I'd stop in and see if I could piss some statists off for old time's sake. :-)

Yabut, let's go full devil's advocate there: the purpose of mandatory education is to ensure the new arrivals are up to speed with everything in human culture up to date; if it's actively harmful to promote ignorance - and I'd say it is! - then where's the compromise?

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12-04-2015, 11:15 PM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
(12-04-2015 11:05 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(12-04-2015 11:00 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Yup. Been pretty busy but I'm still here. Haven't been on this forum for while though so I thought I'd stop in and see if I could piss some statists off for old time's sake. :-)

Yabut, let's go full devil's advocate there: the purpose of mandatory education is to ensure the new arrivals are up to speed with everything in human culture up to date; if it's actively harmful to promote ignorance - and I'd say it is! - then where's the compromise?

Home schooling whatever you want, which leads to bullshit like creationism being taught as fact.

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