Superior/Inferior Cultures?
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12-04-2015, 11:39 PM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
Not really. The stated purpose of compulsory education may indeed be those things but as I mentioned above, let's not look at what people say, let's look at what they do. That's critical because what one says does not affect anyone. What one does, however, can have deleterious effects on a lot of people. Likewise with government... the stated purpose of a program is basically irrelevant for any purpose other than identifying the particular program being discussed. In other words, it's just a name. But, the effects of that program, whether intended or not intended, are what actually effects real human beings, whether for the better or for the worst and whether or not those effects were stated as a purpose.

That said, who needs to be gotten up to speed on lies about the virtue of the state? What possible good does it do little Johnny to be able to recite a prayer to a colored rag? What good does it do for little Johnny to be capable of diagramming sentences or to pick out verbs and adverbs in them? Especially if he has no interest in any profession that would require such skills?

On the contrary, I would argue that government schooling is exactly the promotion of ignorance. Of course, that statement is useless if I'm not prepared to explain what is and is not important to know so...

I've already explained what's not important in some generality but what IS important? Well, that depends on the person, their location and a variety of other factors that no group of bureaucrats can know. If little Johnny lives in the northern part of the US, he needs to know some things about how to move around and survive in the snow. If he's in the south, he needs to know how to avoid heat stroke. If he demonstrates an interest in working with his hands, he needs to learn how to use tools. If he's interested in numbers and computers, he needs to know calculus and logic.

And if he does not show an interest in sentence structure then no one anywhere should be forcing him to sit in a prison like room for any period of time any number of days per week, month or year learning how to diagram sentences. Why? For the same reasons why it is wrong to force children to learn about and pretend to worship gods. Namely, because they have not asked to be.

And why do we even think we need to force children to learn? Children are quite naturally voracious learners any time their motivation is left unmolested by busy body adults who think they can decide for other human beings what they should know and what they should not know. Don't believe me? Try to stop a child from learning how to talk, how to walk, etc. Try to stop an older child from pursuing that which interests him or her. If you do, they will hide from you and do it anyway. Unless of course, you've successfully murdered their interest in learning by forcing them to sit, often sequestered from their friends, in a cold and boring room practicing rote memorization of things in which they have no interest.

Not to mention, forcing people to do things which they do not want to do (life safety notwithstanding) is just fucking immoral and sadistic.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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13-04-2015, 02:02 AM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
So this ex-homie who I work with didn't like school, didn't go much at all and got in with the local bangers, ya know? He came out with the carnival because things were getting hot around the hood. He doesn't have a drug or alcohol problem. He is emotionally immature, but can communicate, has empathy and a basic respect for other people. He talks in a ghetto mumble. His reading level is below average. His head is stuffed with a tremendous amount of unreal crap. He is uneducated. He is a waste of potential. Is this his parents fault? Is this the schools fault when he wasn't there much? Would not indoctrination/education have improved his lot? Might not force feeding have put him in a better position, with better mental tools, to decide for himself what he really wants and improve his techniques in making his way in the world?

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13-04-2015, 02:38 AM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
I think a certain amount of force-fed education is not a bad thing. No kid of his own free will is gonna learn the broad topics that a school education provides. Having a solid, broad core curriculum is no bad thing. It's when politics gets mixed in with education that bad shit happens. Like here in SA the politicians have started making noise about teaching history as a compulsory subject. Fine, I can get behind that, but I still remember Bob Mugabe's big ideas about history as a compulsory subject: "White guys bad, Bob Mugabe good. Bob Mugabe saved ridiculous peasants. Peasants must love Bob Mugabe. Everything that goes wrong with Zimbabwe is former colonial power's fault." Given that the current bunch of South African politicians are incapable of pretty much *anything* other than embezzling government funds, I don't hold high hopes for any education system they get their fat, greasy hands on.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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13-04-2015, 02:43 AM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
Whoops.

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13-04-2015, 05:27 AM (This post was last modified: 13-04-2015 05:31 AM by bbeljefe.)
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
(13-04-2015 02:02 AM)Billy Bob Wrote:  So this ex-homie who I work with didn't like school, didn't go much at all and got in with the local bangers, ya know? He came out with the carnival because things were getting hot around the hood. He doesn't have a drug or alcohol problem. He is emotionally immature, but can communicate, has empathy and a basic respect for other people. He talks in a ghetto mumble. His reading level is below average. His head is stuffed with a tremendous amount of unreal crap. He is uneducated. He is a waste of potential. Is this his parents fault? Is this the schools fault when he wasn't there much? Would not indoctrination/education have improved his lot? Might not force feeding have put him in a better position, with better mental tools, to decide for himself what he really wants and improve his techniques in making his way in the world?

So what do you propose? Actual prison for children so that they can't skip class? Do you think that forcing people (letting alone the moral implications of doing so) into an environment of education would actually do them any good? I mean seriously... can you really force someone to learn or will they simply ignore the lessons you attempt to thrust into their brains? After all, we can certainly shove a pill or a wad of food into the body but can we do the same to the brain without significant risk of doing irreparable damage to the brain?

But forget all that and let's look at your statements. You say he got in with the bangers so I assume you mean he sold drugs and probably got into some fights. I certainly don't condone violence but what the hell is wrong with selling drugs? Dope dealers provide a product to willing consumers who voluntarily purchase said product for their own use. And any danger one finds in the trade of illicit drugs would almost entirely be eliminated by free market trade were there no government prohibition on the sale of same.

You also say his head is stuffed with a tremendous amount of unreal crap. I have no idea what that means, given your purposefully vague style of writing but I'll assume you mean religion and perhaps, some misconceptions about society. Religion is absolutely the fault of the parents and so are misconceptions about society in most cases. The rest can be soundly placed on the backs of government schools.

Lastly, you claim he's a waste of potential. That's an incredibly subjective statement and it takes nothing into account of this man's happiness with his own life. Perhaps he's very happy with his lot in life and he doesn't want to be the next famous actor, inventor or groundbreaking scientist. If that's the case, you have no business whatever judging his choice in the negative. After all, it's his body, his life and his choice. And if you're mad that he may take welfare then that's just all the more reason to be angry at the state because if there were no welfare there would be no welfare whores.

In the end, of course it's the parent's fault and of course it's the state's fault. Those two are the primary entities which mold each and every child into the adult they become. We speak our native language because that's what we're exposed to. We worship invisible beings (or don't) because that's what we're exposed to. We think that using violence to solve problems is acceptable human behavior because that's what we're exposed to, by both our parents and the state.

The mind of a child is tabula rasa. Whatever the adults who raise the child put on that tablet is almost always what the child, as an adult, becomes.


So no, compulsory education most certainly wouldn't help the man about whom you speak. How do we know? It didn't. That's about as empirical as one can get, is it not?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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13-04-2015, 05:37 AM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
(13-04-2015 02:38 AM)morondog Wrote:  I think a certain amount of force-fed education is not a bad thing. No kid of his own free will is gonna learn the broad topics that a school education provides. Having a solid, broad core curriculum is no bad thing. It's when politics gets mixed in with education that bad shit happens. Like here in SA the politicians have started making noise about teaching history as a compulsory subject. Fine, I can get behind that, but I still remember Bob Mugabe's big ideas about history as a compulsory subject: "White guys bad, Bob Mugabe good. Bob Mugabe saved ridiculous peasants. Peasants must love Bob Mugabe. Everything that goes wrong with Zimbabwe is former colonial power's fault." Given that the current bunch of South African politicians are incapable of pretty much *anything* other than embezzling government funds, I don't hold high hopes for any education system they get their fat, greasy hands on.

Really? So a certain amount of threatened violence is a good thing. How much violence and what is your metric for meting out this violence?

No sane individual needs to learn all the shit that's taught in government schools. Human beings learn our best when in the pursuit of a personal goal, not while being threatened with violence.

Query Google for unschooling and look at the results peaceful parents are having with NOT forcing their children to learn anything at all. These kids, relative to their government schooled contemporaries, are geniuses. They also don't "need" to be force fed psychoactive drugs in order to keep them compliant.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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13-04-2015, 06:12 AM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
(13-04-2015 05:37 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Really? So a certain amount of threatened violence is a good thing. How much violence and what is your metric for meting out this violence?

No sane individual needs to learn all the shit that's taught in government schools. Human beings learn our best when in the pursuit of a personal goal, not while being threatened with violence.

Query Google for unschooling and look at the results peaceful parents are having with NOT forcing their children to learn anything at all. These kids, relative to their government schooled contemporaries, are geniuses. They also don't "need" to be force fed psychoactive drugs in order to keep them compliant.

What in the name of fuck are you going on about? Also, how the fuck didja get that from my post? You're off your meds.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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13-04-2015, 07:08 AM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
(12-04-2015 11:39 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Not really. The stated purpose of compulsory education may indeed be those things but as I mentioned above, let's not look at what people say, let's look at what they do. That's critical because what one says does not affect anyone. What one does, however, can have deleterious effects on a lot of people. Likewise with government... the stated purpose of a program is basically irrelevant for any purpose other than identifying the particular program being discussed. In other words, it's just a name. But, the effects of that program, whether intended or not intended, are what actually effects real human beings, whether for the better or for the worst and whether or not those effects were stated as a purpose.

That said, who needs to be gotten up to speed on lies about the virtue of the state? What possible good does it do little Johnny to be able to recite a prayer to a colored rag? What good does it do for little Johnny to be capable of diagramming sentences or to pick out verbs and adverbs in them? Especially if he has no interest in any profession that would require such skills?

On the contrary, I would argue that government schooling is exactly the promotion of ignorance. Of course, that statement is useless if I'm not prepared to explain what is and is not important to know so...

I've already explained what's not important in some generality but what IS important? Well, that depends on the person, their location and a variety of other factors that no group of bureaucrats can know. If little Johnny lives in the northern part of the US, he needs to know some things about how to move around and survive in the snow. If he's in the south, he needs to know how to avoid heat stroke. If he demonstrates an interest in working with his hands, he needs to learn how to use tools. If he's interested in numbers and computers, he needs to know calculus and logic.

And if he does not show an interest in sentence structure then no one anywhere should be forcing him to sit in a prison like room for any period of time any number of days per week, month or year learning how to diagram sentences. Why? For the same reasons why it is wrong to force children to learn about and pretend to worship gods. Namely, because they have not asked to be.

And why do we even think we need to force children to learn? Children are quite naturally voracious learners any time their motivation is left unmolested by busy body adults who think they can decide for other human beings what they should know and what they should not know. Don't believe me? Try to stop a child from learning how to talk, how to walk, etc. Try to stop an older child from pursuing that which interests him or her. If you do, they will hide from you and do it anyway. Unless of course, you've successfully murdered their interest in learning by forcing them to sit, often sequestered from their friends, in a cold and boring room practicing rote memorization of things in which they have no interest.

Not to mention, forcing people to do things which they do not want to do (life safety notwithstanding) is just fucking immoral and sadistic.

There are a great many things that children do not want to do, but they need to do them. Your argument is childish.

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13-04-2015, 07:18 AM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
(13-04-2015 07:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-04-2015 11:39 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Not really. The stated purpose of compulsory education may indeed be those things but as I mentioned above, let's not look at what people say, let's look at what they do. That's critical because what one says does not affect anyone. What one does, however, can have deleterious effects on a lot of people. Likewise with government... the stated purpose of a program is basically irrelevant for any purpose other than identifying the particular program being discussed. In other words, it's just a name. But, the effects of that program, whether intended or not intended, are what actually effects real human beings, whether for the better or for the worst and whether or not those effects were stated as a purpose.

That said, who needs to be gotten up to speed on lies about the virtue of the state? What possible good does it do little Johnny to be able to recite a prayer to a colored rag? What good does it do for little Johnny to be capable of diagramming sentences or to pick out verbs and adverbs in them? Especially if he has no interest in any profession that would require such skills?

On the contrary, I would argue that government schooling is exactly the promotion of ignorance. Of course, that statement is useless if I'm not prepared to explain what is and is not important to know so...

I've already explained what's not important in some generality but what IS important? Well, that depends on the person, their location and a variety of other factors that no group of bureaucrats can know. If little Johnny lives in the northern part of the US, he needs to know some things about how to move around and survive in the snow. If he's in the south, he needs to know how to avoid heat stroke. If he demonstrates an interest in working with his hands, he needs to learn how to use tools. If he's interested in numbers and computers, he needs to know calculus and logic.

And if he does not show an interest in sentence structure then no one anywhere should be forcing him to sit in a prison like room for any period of time any number of days per week, month or year learning how to diagram sentences. Why? For the same reasons why it is wrong to force children to learn about and pretend to worship gods. Namely, because they have not asked to be.

And why do we even think we need to force children to learn? Children are quite naturally voracious learners any time their motivation is left unmolested by busy body adults who think they can decide for other human beings what they should know and what they should not know. Don't believe me? Try to stop a child from learning how to talk, how to walk, etc. Try to stop an older child from pursuing that which interests him or her. If you do, they will hide from you and do it anyway. Unless of course, you've successfully murdered their interest in learning by forcing them to sit, often sequestered from their friends, in a cold and boring room practicing rote memorization of things in which they have no interest.

Not to mention, forcing people to do things which they do not want to do (life safety notwithstanding) is just fucking immoral and sadistic.

There are a great many things that children do not want to do, but they need to do them. Your argument is childish.

My argument is and always has been supported with empirical evidence that could be found in less than one commercial break in the average television show.

Perhaps you'd care to provide an actual refutation? Or at least some attempt at justifying your claim that children need to be forced to do "things"?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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13-04-2015, 07:24 AM
RE: Superior/Inferior Cultures?
(13-04-2015 06:12 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 05:37 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Really? So a certain amount of threatened violence is a good thing. How much violence and what is your metric for meting out this violence?

No sane individual needs to learn all the shit that's taught in government schools. Human beings learn our best when in the pursuit of a personal goal, not while being threatened with violence.

Query Google for unschooling and look at the results peaceful parents are having with NOT forcing their children to learn anything at all. These kids, relative to their government schooled contemporaries, are geniuses. They also don't "need" to be force fed psychoactive drugs in order to keep them compliant.

What in the name of fuck are you going on about? Also, how the fuck didja get that from my post? You're off your meds.

It's pretty simple. Forced anything comes with the threat of violence. If it didn't, it wouldn't be forced.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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