"Supernatural": is it a convenient way to describe ignorance of how reality works?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
27-03-2017, 11:01 AM
RE: "Supernatural": is it a convenient way to describe ignorance of how reality works?
Lol nice Big Grin

I find it weird also that some people seem to want an external purpose. They want to be told what to do, and how to do it. But then I guess they don't get there without help. Being indoctrinated is like having your legs repeatedly broken.

I do know the feeling, as I was indoctrinated in another way. I was conditioned, as a child, to believe I was useless and couldn't do anything without help. It's something I still have to fight today, even though I have plentiful evidence that it's not true.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Robvalue's post
27-03-2017, 11:28 AM
RE: "Supernatural": is it a convenient way to describe ignorance of how reality works?
Replace "miracle" with "magic" and suddenly it's ridiculous to Christians.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like ResidentEvilFan's post
27-03-2017, 01:09 PM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2017 01:14 PM by mordant.)
RE: "Supernatural": is it a convenient way to describe ignorance of how reality works?
(27-03-2017 10:58 AM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  I didn't like the idea of saying that I accepted Jesus as the son of God. I knew no such thing. But my parents insisted, so one Sunday morning I found myself standing with a row of other young members-to-be in front of the congregation. When the minister had us repeat our lines, I simply kept my mouth shut, and since my back was to the congregation I got away with it. At least my parents never mentioned it to me afterwards, and I never attended that church again.

I love a happy ending.

Big Grin
Lol ... you stiff-necked, rebellious reprobate, you! Another member of an evil, froward generation that god will not accept. Good for you!

If your parents noticed, they probably just figured you'd grow out of it. What were they going to do, beat it out of you? Most parents have more sense than that.

Sadly at that point in my life I was completely in line with my handler's expectations. Just didn't occur to me that I even had those choices or that freedom. Prior to adulthood I was completely sold on conformity and total trust of "constituted authority" as the way to guaranteed happiness, and of course, on never questioning established truth (or how it was established!) or exhibiting skepticism or other degenerate traits.

I was 30 before I started to make a break for it. And my claw-marks are still visible from how I fought it. I envy your head start.

<edit> On the other hand from another thread I am reminded you took a long detour through Islam so maybe we aren't that different on balance. Good grief, religion can sure be a millstone and a time suck.</edit>
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like mordant's post
27-03-2017, 01:59 PM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2017 02:09 PM by Kernel Sohcahtoa.)
"Supernatural": is it a convenient way to describe ignorance of how reality works?
(27-03-2017 11:28 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  Replace "miracle" with "magic" and suddenly it's ridiculous to Christians.

Perhaps the socialization process involved in bringing people up via religious beliefs, causes people to see their "in group" miracles as normal and "not too far fetched", which in their opinion, could reasonably fill in the blanks to their satisfaction and be accepted as true via social norms; whereas, some other miracle of another faith ("out group") that they have not been socialized to believe in, may be seen as magical fillers in knowledge that are probably false? Hence, the in group's supernatural can be equated with miracles that are connected to our reality in some way, while the out-group's supernatural can be seen as mythology and magic that are products of the human imagination?

Jay Vogelson Wrote:I think it's a basic human tendency to fill in the blanks in our understanding with something that at least sounds like it might make sense -- to make up some story about it."

This reminds me of the concept of minimally counter-intuitive worlds which Thomson discusses in Why we believe in Gods. According to Thomson, minimally counter intuitive worlds is a form of inferential reasoning that is basic to the human mind: it allows people to fill in the blanks of their understanding for reasons described in your post that is quoted above (Thomson, 64-66). However, if people allow themselves to make sense of reality in this manner, then it would seem to open the door to confirmation bias and close-mindedness. As a result, in order to keep a more open and less biased mind, perhaps it would be wise for people to do the following: put their preconceptions and pre-existing beliefs on the sideline; understand gaps in knowledge via working theories of possible explanations that can be modified or scrapped accordingly based on a new and more complete understanding of the data at hand? Does anybody else see it differently or have other suggestions? Thanks.


References

Thomson, J.A. (2011). Why we believe in gods: A concise guide to the science of faith. United States of America: Pitchstone Publishing

"I'm fearful when I see people substituting fear for reason." Klaatu, from The Day The Earth Stood Still (1951)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Kernel Sohcahtoa's post
27-03-2017, 03:24 PM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2017 05:48 PM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: "Supernatural": is it a convenient way to describe ignorance of how reality works?
(27-03-2017 01:09 PM)mordant Wrote:  I envy your head start.

<edit> On the other hand from another thread I am reminded you took a long detour through Islam so maybe we aren't that different on balance. Good grief, religion can sure be a millstone and a time suck.</edit>

Yes, I squandered my early advantage, and primarily because I was taught so early in my life that I had an immortal soul that I thought it was my own idea for years afterwards. If you adopt one idea in a constellation of mutually supporting assumptions, you are pretty much caught until you break free of the whole mess. I discarded some bad ideas only to take up others which were only marginally better. Reading atheistic ideas finally taught me how to cut through that Gordian knot.

(Edit: The trick is not to take up the burden of proof.)

Smile
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Thoreauvian's post
27-03-2017, 03:30 PM
RE: "Supernatural": is it a convenient way to describe ignorance of how reality works?
(27-03-2017 01:59 PM)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote:  As a result, in order to keep a more open and less biased mind, perhaps it would be wise for people to do the following: put their preconceptions and pre-existing beliefs on the sideline; understand gaps in knowledge via working theories of possible explanations that can be modified or scrapped accordingly based on a new and more complete understanding of the data at hand? Does anybody else see it differently or have other suggestions?

Rather than struggling with confirmation bias, one simple question might be enough: Can what I believe be integrated with what we understand from science, or is it completely unnecessary as a hypothesis?

Sometimes people just ask themselves the wrong questions.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Thoreauvian's post
27-03-2017, 03:40 PM
"Supernatural": is it a convenient way to describe ignorance of how reality works?
(26-03-2017 01:10 PM)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote:  ---- would it be more sensible for theists to ascribe their god belief to faith rather than trying to explain it into existence via logical argumentation?

I've always thought this. It's never made sense to me, to essentially make the statement: Faith is the only truth and science is not and now I will show you with science, just how true faith is. Blink okee dokee

(26-03-2017 01:10 PM)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote:  From a theistic worldview, if one has faith in the existence of a greater, benevolent being, then why is it necessary to make arguments on its behalf? Isn't your faith enough?

One would think.
I have asked this a few times and have never gotten a straight answer.

I do know that some theists feel the exercise of their faith includes and even requires recruitment and/or evangelizing in some way.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes kim's post
28-03-2017, 07:21 AM
RE: "Supernatural": is it a convenient way to describe ignorance of how reality works?
(27-03-2017 01:59 PM)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote:  
(27-03-2017 11:28 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  Replace "miracle" with "magic" and suddenly it's ridiculous to Christians.

Perhaps the socialization process involved in bringing people up via religious beliefs, causes people to see their "in group" miracles as normal and "not too far fetched", which in their opinion, could reasonably fill in the blanks to their satisfaction and be accepted as true via social norms; whereas, some other miracle of another faith ("out group") that they have not been socialized to believe in, may be seen as magical fillers in knowledge that are probably false? Hence, the in group's supernatural can be equated with miracles that are connected to our reality in some way, while the out-group's supernatural can be seen as mythology and magic that are products of the human imagination?

Jay Vogelson Wrote:I think it's a basic human tendency to fill in the blanks in our understanding with something that at least sounds like it might make sense -- to make up some story about it."

This reminds me of the concept of minimally counter-intuitive worlds which Thomson discusses in Why we believe in Gods. According to Thomson, minimally counter intuitive worlds is a form of inferential reasoning that is basic to the human mind: it allows people to fill in the blanks of their understanding for reasons described in your post that is quoted above (Thomson, 64-66). However, if people allow themselves to make sense of reality in this manner, then it would seem to open the door to confirmation bias and close-mindedness. As a result, in order to keep a more open and less biased mind, perhaps it would be wise for people to do the following: put their preconceptions and pre-existing beliefs on the sideline; understand gaps in knowledge via working theories of possible explanations that can be modified or scrapped accordingly based on a new and more complete understanding of the data at hand? Does anybody else see it differently or have other suggestions? Thanks.


References

Thomson, J.A. (2011). Why we believe in gods: A concise guide to the science of faith. United States of America: Pitchstone Publishing

Absolutely. Scientific work and practical results only ever come about when people are able to put aside their preconceptions and assumptions as much as possible. Ask for some practical results that come about from religion that couldn't have been achieved at least as well another way, and you'll be left without answers.

Even as a "sceptic", I've had to ditch what I thought were some sensible assumptions, in order to study and understand certain scientific concepts. I realized I was bowing down to my monkey brain, and didn't actually have any firm grounding for my dogma.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Robvalue's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: