Support our troops.
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23-09-2011, 03:38 PM
 
RE: Support our troops.
(23-09-2011 03:33 PM)17thknight Wrote:  Not at all. That's what everyone said the Cold War would end in, but it ended without either side firing a shot. We exist in that state to this day with many countries.

If that was going to happen, it would have already, but it didn't. And it won't. Because it is impossible to attack these nations without destroying yourself.

Also, you ignored the second half of my post.

I totally disagree with you but I don't have time now to give you a detailed rebuttal.

I will get back to you later.

Undecided


OK, I am back.

I heard these arguments all my life.

The issue is very simple: The USA and her allies are strong enough to destroy the entire planet with half of their nuclear arsenal. They don’t need any more defense against any sane opponent that does not have a death wish.

When it comes to defense against people who have nothing to lose and are willing to die in order to take as many Americans/Westerners with them as they can (as the 9/11 attackers), you have no defense whatsoever, as was proven 10 years ago.

Proliferation is a fact and there is nothing that you could do to stop it. Nuclear weapons will get into the hands of desperate people, sooner or later, no matter what you do. I am surprised it has not happened yet.

The only thing you can do is to remove the reasons why these people want to kill you (and don’t give me that bullshit that they hate you for your freedoms). That means showing goodwill and removing the injustices that the American/Western Empire has perpetrated around the Globe since WW2. They are all very well documented.

You don't cure the disease by suppressing the symptoms. Ask any doctor.

As far as “humanitarian intervention” is concerned, it sounds awfully like the “White Man’s Burden”.

Most of the problems that require intervention are caused by the parties who want to intervene. Current events in Libya is a test case, with all the oil companies lining up for their share.

The cycle of death and destruction will end only one way: the countries that are causing it have to back down, retreat to their own territory (from their hundreds of military bases around the world) and allow the rest of the world to work out their problems, without intervention, without egging them on, without supplying them with deadlier weapons (and getting filthy rich doing it).

And this is the last post I will make on this subject here.

I have heard it all, I have been nauseated by it all, the arguments are idiotic and self serving and totally circular.

I will not be sucked into any more argument about justifying brutality and injustice.

Angry
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23-09-2011, 04:45 PM (This post was last modified: 23-09-2011 04:48 PM by mysticjbyrd.)
RE: Support our troops.
Anyone who makes an argument solely based on an old quote should be ridiculed to no end.

Appeal to Authority: (argumentum ad verecundiam) Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true.

Support our troops by bringing them home, and stop the warmongering in the US already.
For the money we wasted on these two wars, we could have built about 200 twin towers. Or used it for humanitarian aid in the US, and abroad.

Countless Americans suffer every day, so we can cause suffering abroad.
Put that in your quote book.
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24-09-2011, 07:41 AM
RE: Support our troops.
I think there are two distinct concepts in this thread and people are talking past each other. On the one hand, you have the idea that there will always be wars, it is just a matter of time. I agree with that. It only takes one side to start a war. At that point, your choices are to fight back or just surrender and deal with the consequences. But, either way, there is going to be death and destruction.

The other concept here seems to be dealing with specific instances of war and how needless they can be. I agree with that too. There was no reason for the US to attack Iraq. There was no reason for the US to get involved in Viet Nam. I think you can argue either way in the case of Korea. In Korea, you had an attack of a legitimate, democratic government and US ally. I suppose you can argue that the US had no real vested interest and should not have gotten involved, but in general I think defending an ally from an attack is a legitimate use of force. WWII was a moral war. The US and her allies were fighting some of the most despicable regimes the world has ever seen in the Nazis and the Japanese empire. Both of those governments murdered, raped and enslaved millions of innocent people. Even if our own survival was not at stake, we were right in fighting WWII. WWI, on the other hand, was completely criminal and all the leaders and generals on both sides should have been lined up and shot when it was all over.

I think wars will always happen, they are just going to be unavoidable. But, before you send soldiers off to die, you really need to be sure of the reason. Otto von Bismark - not a man known for his peaceful inclinations - once said something along the lines of "heaven help the leader who's reasons for going to war are not clear when the war is over". I didn't get that exactly right but you get the point.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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24-09-2011, 07:56 AM
 
RE: Support our troops.
(24-09-2011 07:41 AM)BnW Wrote:  I suppose you can argue that the US had no real vested interest ...

That is my point, BnW. Empires have, by definition, vested interest in everything. They want to keep and expand their empires. If there is a threat to their holdings, they react. If there is an opening, a possibility to expand, they will attack.

...and many people, often millions, will have to die and suffer to satisfy the ambitions and greed of empire builders.

WWII did not start by the Germans attacking Poland. There was a long history of chess games by empire builders before that, including the Versailles treaty.

All I wanted to say: support the troops by bringing them home.

They don't need to be there.

We don't need them to be there.

Only the bastards need them to be there.


Angry
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24-09-2011, 08:29 AM
RE: Support our troops.
Well, technically WWII did start with the attacking of Poland but if you're making the point it was somewhat inevitable, I agree. The Versailles Treaty absolutely laid the foundation for at least a second European war. Many predicted it at the time, too, including John Maynard Keynes. If it wasn't Hitler, it would have been some other German militant but that treaty forced a very unjust peace on the Germans. It was a matter of time before they punched back.

I'm not sure I agree with you on the empire comment for Korea. Sometimes defending an ally is its own reason. But, I do agree we should be bringing troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan now. We should never have been in Iraq to begin with. I'd also like to see the US butt out of more of the world's problems. We are not the world's policeman, no one appreciates us for getting involved, and we really can't afford it. No one elected us "protector of the universe" and I'd be just as happy it we stopped playing the part.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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24-09-2011, 08:36 AM
 
RE: Support our troops.
(24-09-2011 08:29 AM)BnW Wrote:  I'm not sure I agree with you on the empire comment for Korea. Sometimes defending an ally is its own reason.

BnW, alliances are forged in the interest of empires. If an ally is not considered an asset to the empire any more, they are dropped like a piece of garbage. Like Mubarak just recently (actually, quite a long list).

Kissinger once quipped: "It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal".

America is not the policeman of the world. It has never been. It is just the newest of a long line of bully boys, going back to Attila the Hun and beyond.
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24-09-2011, 07:39 PM
RE: Support our troops.
(23-09-2011 02:22 PM)17thknight Wrote:  War will always happen, whether we like it or not.

(23-09-2011 02:49 PM)17thknight Wrote:  And they always will, unto the end of mankind.

That's not only just plain wrong, it's defeatist bullshit. It's like saying "Oh well, guess we just gotta accept that smallpox is here to stay."

(23-09-2011 02:22 PM)17thknight Wrote:  If 99% of people wanted peace and 1% did not, there would be all out war.

That's bullshit too. 99% of us can and currently do capably control the 1% crazy and sociopathic.

(23-09-2011 02:22 PM)17thknight Wrote:  Peace is a fiction.

Peace is more a purpose than a fiction. There's not much that qualifies as a worthwhile purpose.

(23-09-2011 02:22 PM)17thknight Wrote:  The problem with that, however, is that once you cannot be opposed, it is then incumbent upon you to be peaceful.

And that's a problem how? It's been incumbent upon you from the get go. But I can and do appreciate Nietzsche. He's like the yang to Jesus' yin. I don't think he has much useful advice, but he does have a shitload of useful dark and dismal observations and ruminations.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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25-09-2011, 03:14 PM
RE: Support our troops.
(24-09-2011 08:36 AM)Zatamon Wrote:  BnW, alliances are forged in the interest of empires.

Not sure I'd use the word "empires". "Spheres of influence" seems more appropriate to me. The US is not an empire, at least not in the traditional definition of the word. But, we certainly have our hands in the rest of the world's cookie jars, no doubt about that. International relations and diplomacy can be tricky things, though. You generally can't have peace without it. Whether it is defeatist or cynical to say it, mankind has proven that we are a warlike species. It is in our nature to compete with each other, and that too often escalates into armed conflicts. Diplomacy can be a useful way to mitigate and reduce those conflicts.

And, nations don't have "friends", they have "interests". I'm familiar with the Kissinger quote and I'm amazed he would say something that sounds so naive. I realize he said it in context but the idea that the US, or any nation, has "friends" is just simplistic and wrong. We don't.

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When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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25-09-2011, 03:23 PM
 
RE: Support our troops.
(25-09-2011 03:14 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(24-09-2011 08:36 AM)Zatamon Wrote:  BnW, alliances are forged in the interest of empires.

Not sure I'd use the word "empires". "Spheres of influence" seems more appropriate to me. The US is not an empire, at least not in the traditional definition of the word.

See The Imperial Vice Presidency

Quote:It is undeniable that America has used its economic and military pre-eminence in the world to create some sort of postcolonial empire. That was true before Bush became president, and it is truer now given Bush's preference for unilateral control over Iraq; his codification of a new "pre-emption" doctrine that we will never allow other nations to adopt; and his general wariness of the United Nations.

But you'll almost never hear anybody say that. Within the mainstream of American political discourse, it's perfectly acceptable to criticize pre-emption and unilateralism, but by silent agreement, the word "empire" is understood to be beyond the pale. It's one of those words, like "servant," that Americans refuse to utter because it's too difficult to reconcile with American ideals. The only people rude enough to use the word "empire" to describe the United States are foreigners, hard leftists, and Buchananite conservatives. Oh, and one more: Vice President Dick Cheney.

Dick Cheney violated the Bush administration's policy, of never saying the e-word, in a Christmas card he and his wife sent out to various supporters and important Washingtonians. Along with their best wishes for this holiday season, the Cheneys included the following quotation from Benjamin Franklin:

"And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"


The use of the word "empire" puts the issues into historical perspective. Nothing substantially changed in human history, which is logical: we are still the same species we were thousands of years ago.

Technology advanced exponentially, our human psychology has not.

However, you are right: it is not an empire in the traditional definition of the word -- no central administration of the area controlled. Control is dispersed, distributed, exercised with remote control: threats, bribes, "divide and conquer" kind of manipulation. However, the result is the same: their hands are diligently emptying the cookie jars in their "sphere of interest".


(25-09-2011 03:14 PM)BnW Wrote:  And, nations don't have "friends", they have "interests". I'm familiar with the Kissinger quote and I'm amazed he would say something that sounds so naive. I realize he said it in context but the idea that the US, or any nation, has "friends" is just simplistic and wrong. We don't.

The context in which Kissinger said that famous quote is explained as follows:

Quote:Henry Kissinger said in November 1968, after Richard Nixon was elected U.S. president but before he took office: “Nixon should be told that it is probably an objective of Clifford to depose Thieu (South Vietnamese president Nguyen Van Thieu—ed.) before Nixon is inaugurated. Word should be gotten to Nixon that if Thieu meets the same fate as Diem, the word will go out to the nations of the world that it may be dangerous to be America’s enemy, but to be America’s friend is fatal.”

The quotation referred to America’s role in Vietnam. If America doesn’t stand by its friends and allies, the quotation explains, then it might ultimately be less dangerous to be America’s enemy.

See Kissinger on allies

That is why I quoted it, in response to your qualified justification of the Korean war as coming to the aid of an ally. We are both right: it only happens when/if it is perceived that it is in the country's interest to do so. It was perceived as such in the Korean war and that is why they got involved -- not because they were allies.
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25-09-2011, 05:31 PM
RE: Support our troops.
First, Dick Cheney is the world's biggest asshat and I wouldn't put too credence in what he says. He's, hopefully, an anomaly and not the norm.

Second, you are missing a point on Korea. We were allies with South Korea because it was in our national best interest to be allies, and that is why we came to their aid. Maybe it's saying the same thing, but we formed that alliance because of our interests. We didn't come upon our interests after the fact. And, I think in the case of Korea there was a somewhat legitimate case to be made. The problem with Viet Nam is we were defending a brutal dictatorship against Communism only because someone had (wrongly) come to the conclusion that we had to stop Communism wherever it reared its ugly head or all the neighboring countries would fall too. This, of course, was a fallacy. There is a different between defending a legitimate government from attack vs. defending the slime we fought on the side of in Viet Nam. That's a mistake we've made several times since Viet Nam. We've done this in the Mid East and Central America. Backing illegitimate tyrants is going to be at least our moral downfall.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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