Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
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05-11-2015, 06:06 AM
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(04-11-2015 12:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  All of that adds up to you being like a petulant five year-old demanding answers while the adults point out that the answer isn't known.

You continue to claim that insufficient evidence isn't enough reason to not take a position.

And stop with the ad hominem bullshit; you sound like an utter ass.

Quote:You continue to claim that what you have is sufficient evidence. It is not, it is hearsay and your conclusions are opinions, not facts.

No, I pretty much ignore your semantic argument over the word evidence, just like I ignore folks who reject the ToE semantic argument over the word fact. I focus on the conclusions that can be drawn from the various sources and materials we have (your dispute here is primarily as to whether or not the term evidence is appropriate labelling of them). My dispute and support are primarily about the reasonableness and credulity of some set of conclusions over another set of conclusions.

Even though you believe that reasonable and unreasonable conclusions can be drawn from items listed in the category of "not evidence". You avoid actually attempting to argue for or against the reasonable of any particular conclusion. I would love to hear you read Ehrman's Did Jesus Exist, and then hear your take on whether his conclusions are reasonable or not.

You have you own unique particular way of thinking in regards to the question of historicity, focusing primarily on the meaning of terminology, opposed to attempting to form reasonable conclusions. I'm not particularly trying to dictate how you should think, I'm just pointing out that your basic objections are meaningless.

And your suggestion that your position is the only honest one, is a lie. Maybe it's honest, but so is Ehrmans. But perhaps this is not an accurate representation of your views? Maybe you believe historicist views can also be honest ones, as well as your agnosticism. That Ehrman's historicist perspective is at the very least as honest as yours? When it comes to honesty would you concede that much?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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05-11-2015, 06:20 AM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2015 06:54 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(04-11-2015 08:17 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Sure!

The Messiah will be a Jew. *** Yes, Jesus fulfills that one.
The Messiah will be a normal human being, not a god. <-- I suppose technically Jesus fulfills that one, too. ***
The Messiah will be from the House of David. X
The Messiah will build the next Temple, or sustain the existing Temple. X
The Messiah will bring about universal knowledge of G-d. No one will be on atheist forums debating the existence of G-d once the messiah comes, so Jesus gets a big fat X on that one.
The Messiah will end the diaspora, and all the Jews will return to Israel. X
The Messiah will usher in an era of world peace. X

I do have a question, it appears that currently among Jews, expectations of some charismatic human figure of messiah, a single political figure, doesn't seem to be the pervading view any longer. Reform Judaism far as I know doesn't seem to believe that there will be a messiah, though they expect a messianic age.

Even conservative Judaism appears to support the possibility that the messiah is a symbol, for the redemption of humanity.

Where as in early forms of Judaism, the messiah was almost exclusively seen as a single political figure, time has shifted these expectations, and spiritualized them a great deal.

What do you think pushed this spiritualizing perspective? Do you think it was primarily driven by the long absence of his arrival?

I also wonder where you fall in here. Do you see the Messiah not so much in terms of a political figure any longer, but in symbolic and spiritual terms perhaps like other jews today appear to?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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05-11-2015, 06:56 AM
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(04-11-2015 12:32 PM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 11:00 AM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  Amen! *claps hands* Testify! *waves arms in the air*

Jazz hands! You have to do the jazz hands, too.

Spirit fingers! spirit fingers! Evil_monster

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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05-11-2015, 08:07 AM
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(04-11-2015 08:17 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Sure!
The Messiah will be a Jew. *** Yes, Jesus fulfills that one.
The Messiah will be a normal human being, not a god. <-- I suppose technically Jesus fulfills that one, too. ***
The Messiah will be from the House of David. X
The Messiah will build the next Temple, or sustain the existing Temple. X
The Messiah will bring about universal knowledge of G-d. No one will be on atheist forums debating the existence of G-d once the messiah comes, so Jesus gets a big fat X on that one.
The Messiah will end the diaspora, and all the Jews will return to Israel. X
The Messiah will usher in an era of world peace. X

(05-11-2015 06:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I do have a question, it appears that currently among Jews, expectations of some charismatic human figure of messiah, a single political figure, doesn't seem to be the pervading view any longer. Reform Judaism far as I know doesn't seem to believe that there will be a messiah, though they expect a messianic age.

The view of messiah is going to be based on what denomination you belong to, and how well educated you are with the text. The Reformed Movement is largely agnostic or deist with a few authentic theists rounding the bunch out. The Reformed movement may indeed focus on the messianic era, and not the messiah himself. (It might be prudent to mention that no Jewish movement believes in a personal messiah as the Christians do.) Looking at the list above, if the messiah was an entire generation or a large group of people, would such an idea still meet the criteria for the list above? Maybe a reasonable argument could be made to support that. As long as their idea adheres to the framework, then their expectation can be regarded as a valid expression of Judaism.

Looking through Isaiah’s Servant Songs (which I discuss ad nauseam here, and I further expand upon in post #'s: 48, 57, 61, 66, 67), I don’t believe an individual messiah is mentioned at all throughout the entire section, from chapter 40 through to the end. It’s a poem about the messianic era.

(05-11-2015 06:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Even conservative Judaism appears to support the possibility that the messiah is a symbol, for the redemption of humanity.

I think the conservative movement officially shares the traditional view, but they tend to have a lot of non-practicing members who may hold the Reformed view.

(05-11-2015 06:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Where as in early forms of Judaism, the messiah was almost exclusively seen as a single political figure, time has shifted these expectations, and spiritualized them a great deal.

What do you think pushed this spiritualizing perspective? Do you think it was primarily driven by the long absence of his arrival?

I’m not aware of these ideas being “spiritualized”; maybe they’re viewed as metaphorical, as I discussed with the Reformed movement. The traditional Jewish explanation is, and has always been that the Messiah will be a guy who accomplishes the tasks that define Messiah. There’s no magic in it. G-d doesn’t even preordain who the guy will be.

There's a lot more going on in that long wait than meets the eye. We're talking about a people who were desperate to assimilate into their host countries so they can finally stop being persecuted by the Christians. The Reformed Movement changed the religion in an effort to promote assimilation and acceptance.

(05-11-2015 06:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I also wonder where you fall in here. Do you see the Messiah not so much in terms of a political figure any longer, but in symbolic and spiritual terms perhaps like other jews today appear to?

Most Jews that I’ve had contact with and have learned from are interested in the Messiah himself, but much more interested in the messianic era. Messiah is not someone to be worshiped, so it doesn’t really matter who he is, as long as he gets the job done. I would expect that if he accomplishes the goal, then his lineage will just be assumed to be Davidic. Really, the only time I think the lineage becomes a problem is if the guy DIDN'T complete the tasks, and still insists that he's the messiah.

The Messiah doesn’t need to be a political figure. He might be a bartender, or a taxi cab driver. Very simply the guy (or the generation, if you want to view things a little differently) gets the job when he accomplishes the tasks. –Frankly, if the tasks are completed and we never meet the guy, then I think we’ll just conclude that the messiah was an entire generation.

When the tasks are complete, then we’re in the messianic era. That’s really the end goal.
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05-11-2015, 10:52 AM
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(05-11-2015 08:07 AM)Aliza Wrote:  There's a lot more going on in that long wait than meets the eye. We're talking about a people who were desperate to assimilate into their host countries so they can finally stop being persecuted by the Christians. The Reformed Movement changed the religion in an effort to promote assimilation and acceptance.

Maybe, but the way I see it, is that given our more expansive sense of humanity, our long history, filled with all types of reformers and characters, the very idea of a Messiah, has become inconceivable. We lost a considerable deal of faith in political figures, military leaders, etc… And for most of us, particularly in the developed world with our lives of considerable political stability, and peace. We’ve achieved a significant degree of material comfort, sedated a great deal of political strife and violence, so it begins to become inconceivable as to what a Messiah’s role would be. That a belief in such a figure, becomes unrealistic, not consistent or faithful to the movement of life itself.

What possibly could any messiah offer us? More mammen from the sky? Broker a sustainable peace deal with Palestinians and the Israelis, be a more shrewder and keener politician? What could he ever reveal to us about God? Would he perform a series of irrefutable magic tricks, so that it’s undeniable that their is a super being up there some where that can do some real magic? It’s understandable why any jew living under the weight of Roman Oppression, would expect in the Messiah, another Moses figure leading them out the bondage of their oppression. But what bondage and oppression are we under now? What shackles remains to be broken?

Would we know when the Messiah arrives, or would we only recognize him after he’s completed his tasks? As an entirely human messiah, is he to complete his takes within the relative period of his life, or does he just lay the first brick, in a long and hard project the continues after his death?

Quote:Most Jews that I’ve had contact with and have learned from are interested in the Messiah himself, but much more interested in the messianic era. Messiah is not someone to be worshiped, so it doesn’t really matter who he is, as long as he gets the job done. I would expect that if he accomplishes the goal, then his lineage will just be assumed to be Davidic. Really, the only time I think the lineage becomes a problem is if the guy DIDN'T complete the tasks, and still insists that he's the messiah.

The Messiah doesn’t need to be a political figure. He might be a bartender, or a taxi cab driver. Very simply the guy (or the generation, if you want to view things a little differently) gets the job when he accomplishes the tasks. –Frankly, if the tasks are completed and we never meet the guy, then I think we’ll just conclude that the messiah was an entire generation.

But aren’t you hear, confessing an irrelevancy of the davidic lineage, perhaps even the requirement for him being jews. He could be a bartender, or even gentile cab driver, or even a generation that includes gentiles, or primarily gentiles, the relevant aspects is the completion of the tasks?

While those aspects might be a part of OT messianic prophecies, there just not that important, for you at least. While the uniting of humanity, the revealing of who God is, rebuilding of the Temple are? If he completes the goals, whether or not he matches the biological, or ethnic details is irrelevant?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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06-11-2015, 08:43 AM
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(05-11-2015 10:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 08:07 AM)Aliza Wrote:  There's a lot more going on in that long wait than meets the eye. We're talking about a people who were desperate to assimilate into their host countries so they can finally stop being persecuted by the Christians. The Reformed Movement changed the religion in an effort to promote assimilation and acceptance.

Maybe, but the way I see it, is that given our more expansive sense of humanity, our long history, filled with all types of reformers and characters, the very idea of a Messiah, has become inconceivable. We lost a considerable deal of faith in political figures, military leaders, etc… And for most of us, particularly in the developed world with our lives of considerable political stability, and peace. We’ve achieved a significant degree of material comfort, sedated a great deal of political strife and violence, so it begins to become inconceivable as to what a Messiah’s role would be. That a belief in such a figure, becomes unrealistic, not consistent or faithful to the movement of life itself.

What possibly could any messiah offer us? More mammen from the sky? Broker a sustainable peace deal with Palestinians and the Israelis, be a more shrewder and keener politician? What could he ever reveal to us about God? Would he perform a series of irrefutable magic tricks, so that it’s undeniable that their is a super being up there some where that can do some real magic? It’s understandable why any jew living under the weight of Roman Oppression, would expect in the Messiah, another Moses figure leading them out the bondage of their oppression. But what bondage and oppression are we under now? What shackles remains to be broken?
Would we know when the Messiah arrives, or would we only recognize him after he’s completed his tasks? As an entirely human messiah, is he to complete his takes within the relative period of his life, or does he just lay the first brick, in a long and hard project the continues after his death?

I don’t really think that politicians and military leaders require faith. They either do their job well, or they do not, and they risk getting replaced.

Regarding the inconceivability of a Messiah, let me just say this: your believe in this matter will have no impact on the arrival of messiah, and nor will it have an impact on the world around you. If it doesn’t make sense to you, then continue about your day with the confidence that it’s all made-up nonsense. All you need to do is be a good person. Experience life, learn from your mistakes, and cram in as many amazing experiences in before you die as you possibly can. Don’t worship idols, and don’t murder people, don’t cheat on your spouse (if you have one) and don’t steal things. Live in a society with a system of laws and justice. What a deliciously simple (and intuitive) guide for living a good life!

If the messiah is to be a real thing, it will become self-evident without any effort on behalf of mankind. (ie: we do not need to run around shoving pamphlets in people's faces, or threaten them with eternal damnation if they don't believe what we say.)

If G-d is real, then it too will become self-evident.

(05-11-2015 10:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Would we know when the Messiah arrives, or would we only recognize him after he’s completed his tasks? As an entirely human messiah, is he to complete his takes within the relative period of his life, or does he just lay the first brick, in a long and hard project the continues after his death?

The messiah doesn’t get the title until he does the job. Until the job is totally complete, then he’s a messianic candidate. Yes, the tasks will have to be completed within his single, known lifetime.

The Temple must be completed.
Peace must actually be established throughout the world.
Universal knowledge (not belief or blind faith) of G-d must be established throughout the world.
All of the Jews need to be living in Israel.

(05-11-2015 10:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 08:07 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Most Jews that I’ve had contact with and have learned from are interested in the Messiah himself, but much more interested in the messianic era. Messiah is not someone to be worshiped, so it doesn’t really matter who he is, as long as he gets the job done. I would expect that if he accomplishes the goal, then his lineage will just be assumed to be Davidic. Really, the only time I think the lineage becomes a problem is if the guy DIDN'T complete the tasks, and still insists that he's the messiah.

The Messiah doesn’t need to be a political figure. He might be a bartender, or a taxi cab driver. Very simply the guy (or the generation, if you want to view things a little differently) gets the job when he accomplishes the tasks. –Frankly, if the tasks are completed and we never meet the guy, then I think we’ll just conclude that the messiah was an entire generation.

But aren’t you hear, confessing an irrelevancy of the davidic lineage, perhaps even the requirement for him being jews. He could be a bartender, or even gentile cab driver, or even a generation that includes gentiles, or primarily gentiles, the relevant aspects is the completion of the tasks?

While those aspects might be a part of OT messianic prophecies, there just not that important, for you at least. While the uniting of humanity, the revealing of who God is, rebuilding of the Temple are? If he completes the goals, whether or not he matches the biological, or ethnic details is irrelevant?

No, I am not here confessing any such irrelevancy… Perhaps I just wasn’t clear.

If some Jewish guy comes along and rebuilds the temple, establishes world peace, and convinces all the Jews to return to Israel, then his lineage will be obvious. We’re not going to say at that point, “Well, we see that you’ve brought peace to the entire world, and you’ve brought some 6 or 7 million people back to Israel from all over the globe, you’ve secured the temple mount and rebuilt the Temple, and you’ve even convinced all of the atheists on The Thinking Atheist forums that G-d is real… but can we examine the last three thousand years of your family tree? We have trouble believing that you can possibly be from the House of David.” Really, the proof will be in the pudding.

If the guy who accomplishes the tasks is a Gentile, I think we’ll conclude that he’s got Jewish ancestry through his mother’s line. If he accomplishes the task, then he’s obviously Jewish whether he realizes it or not. Again, the proof is in the pudding.

Christians aren’t claiming that Jesus is the Christian messiah. They’re claiming that he’s the Jewish messiah as described in the Hebrew scripture. As such, Jesus needs to line up with the job description, and he simply doesn't. Furthermore, Christians are making some very serious threats against me if I don’t take it on faith. The proof is not in the pudding here. Jesus accomplished nothing, and he doesn’t even have a Davidic lineage to have made him a candidate for the job in the first place.
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06-11-2015, 09:19 AM
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(06-11-2015 08:43 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 10:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Maybe, but the way I see it, is that given our more expansive sense of humanity, our long history, filled with all types of reformers and characters, the very idea of a Messiah, has become inconceivable. We lost a considerable deal of faith in political figures, military leaders, etc… And for most of us, particularly in the developed world with our lives of considerable political stability, and peace. We’ve achieved a significant degree of material comfort, sedated a great deal of political strife and violence, so it begins to become inconceivable as to what a Messiah’s role would be. That a belief in such a figure, becomes unrealistic, not consistent or faithful to the movement of life itself.

What possibly could any messiah offer us? More mammen from the sky? Broker a sustainable peace deal with Palestinians and the Israelis, be a more shrewder and keener politician? What could he ever reveal to us about God? Would he perform a series of irrefutable magic tricks, so that it’s undeniable that their is a super being up there some where that can do some real magic? It’s understandable why any jew living under the weight of Roman Oppression, would expect in the Messiah, another Moses figure leading them out the bondage of their oppression. But what bondage and oppression are we under now? What shackles remains to be broken?
Would we know when the Messiah arrives, or would we only recognize him after he’s completed his tasks? As an entirely human messiah, is he to complete his takes within the relative period of his life, or does he just lay the first brick, in a long and hard project the continues after his death?

I don’t really think that politicians and military leaders require faith. They either do their job well, or they do not, and they risk getting replaced.

Regarding the inconceivability of a Messiah, let me just say this: your believe in this matter will have no impact on the arrival of messiah, and nor will it have an impact on the world around you. If it doesn’t make sense to you, then continue about your day with the confidence that it’s all made-up nonsense. All you need to do is be a good person. Experience life, learn from your mistakes, and cram in as many amazing experiences in before you die as you possibly can. Don’t worship idols, and don’t murder people, don’t cheat on your spouse (if you have one) and don’t steal things. Live in a society with a system of laws and justice. What a deliciously simple (and intuitive) guide for living a good life!

If the messiah is to be a real thing, it will become self-evident without any effort on behalf of mankind. (ie: we do not need to run around shoving pamphlets in people's faces, or threaten them with eternal damnation if they don't believe what we say.)

If G-d is real, then it too will become self-evident.

(05-11-2015 10:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Would we know when the Messiah arrives, or would we only recognize him after he’s completed his tasks? As an entirely human messiah, is he to complete his takes within the relative period of his life, or does he just lay the first brick, in a long and hard project the continues after his death?

The messiah doesn’t get the title until he does the job. Until the job is totally complete, then he’s a messianic candidate. Yes, the tasks will have to be completed within his single, known lifetime.

The Temple must be completed.
Peace must actually be established throughout the world.
Universal knowledge (not belief or blind faith) of G-d must be established throughout the world.
All of the Jews need to be living in Israel.

(05-11-2015 10:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But aren’t you hear, confessing an irrelevancy of the davidic lineage, perhaps even the requirement for him being jews. He could be a bartender, or even gentile cab driver, or even a generation that includes gentiles, or primarily gentiles, the relevant aspects is the completion of the tasks?

While those aspects might be a part of OT messianic prophecies, there just not that important, for you at least. While the uniting of humanity, the revealing of who God is, rebuilding of the Temple are? If he completes the goals, whether or not he matches the biological, or ethnic details is irrelevant?

No, I am not here confessing any such irrelevancy… Perhaps I just wasn’t clear.

If some Jewish guy comes along and rebuilds the temple, establishes world peace, and convinces all the Jews to return to Israel, then his lineage will be obvious. We’re not going to say at that point, “Well, we see that you’ve brought peace to the entire world, and you’ve brought some 6 or 7 million people back to Israel from all over the globe, you’ve secured the temple mount and rebuilt the Temple, and you’ve even convinced all of the atheists on The Thinking Atheist forums that G-d is real… but can we examine the last three thousand years of your family tree? We have trouble believing that you can possibly be from the House of David.” Really, the proof will be in the pudding.

If the guy who accomplishes the tasks is a Gentile, I think we’ll conclude that he’s got Jewish ancestry through his mother’s line. If he accomplishes the task, then he’s obviously Jewish whether he realizes it or not. Again, the proof is in the pudding.

Christians aren’t claiming that Jesus is the Christian messiah. They’re claiming that he’s the Jewish messiah as described in the Hebrew scripture. As such, Jesus needs to line up with the job description, and he simply doesn't. Furthermore, Christians are making some very serious threats against me if I don’t take it on faith. The proof is not in the pudding here. Jesus accomplished nothing, and he doesn’t even have a Davidic lineage to have made him a candidate for the job in the first place.

Well said. Clap

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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08-11-2015, 07:07 AM
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(04-11-2015 12:45 AM)Chas Wrote:  Besides, as I have stated before, it doesn't matter whether or not some Yeshua existed or not: the Jesus described in the Bible is a myth.

Aron Ra on a historical Jesus not being the mythical Jesus

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08-11-2015, 08:11 AM
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(06-11-2015 08:43 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I don’t really think that politicians and military leaders require faith. They either do their job well, or they do not, and they risk getting replaced.

Regarding the inconceivability of a Messiah, let me just say this:

The point I was making in regards to inconceivability, is that if we were first century Jews, under Roman oppression, it wouldn’t be hard to envision what the messiah would be, fitting into the mold of someone like Simon Bar Kochba, a leader of a violent revolt against rome. Only in his failure was he rejected.

But it’s hard to conceive as to what those expectations for those today would be, even for you. Do you primarily just see it in terms of goals, but not necessarily in regards to means and character? You know what the messiah will do, but can’t particularly form a picture of what he would be like, or the means in which he reveals God to humanity, ushering in peace, or rebuilds the temple?

Where as in a particular climate of first century Jerusalem the messiah might had some expected form, but is that something you on the other hand lack a conception of, of the sort of person he would be?

Quote: No, I am not here confessing any such irrelevancy… Perhaps I just wasn’t clear.

If some Jewish guy comes along and rebuilds the temple, establishes world peace, and convinces all the Jews to return to Israel, then his lineage will be obvious. We’re not going to say at that point, “Well, we see that you’ve brought peace to the entire world, and you’ve brought some 6 or 7 million people back to Israel from all over the globe, you’ve secured the temple mount and rebuilt the Temple, and you’ve even convinced all of the atheists on The Thinking Atheist forums that G-d is real… but can we examine the last three thousand years of your family tree? We have trouble believing that you can possibly be from the House of David.” Really, the proof will be in the pudding

If the guy who accomplishes the tasks is a Gentile, I think we’ll conclude that he’s got Jewish ancestry through his mother’s line. If he accomplishes the task, then he’s obviously Jewish whether he realizes it or not. Again, the proof is in the pudding..

Yes, I misunderstood you. If he accomplishes all these things, we would just take it as a given that he has Jewish roots, that traces all the way back to David. He, nor anybody else might be able to trace that lineage, he may not even believe it himself, but the fact that he completed these tasks reveal he was the messiah, and therefore descended from that lineage regardless if we can prove this or not, or draw a family tree. And it doesn’t appear that if the messiah did show up, anyone would be equipped to trace his lineages a couple thousands years back. That was probably not much different in the first century either. Whether or not any person in the first century messiah claimant or not, descended from the line of David would likely be unknown.

Quote:Furthermore, Christians are making some very serious threats against me if I don’t take it on faith.

I can’t speak for them, they’ll likely condemn me to hell as well, and several generations ago might of strung me up on a tree or something for being a different skin color.

[quote]Christians aren’t claiming that Jesus is the Christian messiah. T/ The proof is not in the pudding here. Jesus accomplished nothing, and he doesn’t even have a Davidic lineage to have made him a candidate for the job in the first place.
[quote]

To be fare, I don’t think any of the followers of Jesus knew his family tree, particular one that extended several generations into the past, to the time of David. Only two of the gospels writers even attempt to offer a genealogy, the same writers who suggested he was born of a virgin as well. If he accomplished the tasks of the messiah, the proof would be in the pudding as you put it.

My contention, is that while Jesus would have been no ones idea of messiah, 2000 years ago, where expectations of messiah in the first century likely involved a conception of the form he was to take. Modern jewish expectations seem to be all over the place, the messiah can be a cab driver, a generation, as opposed to a single person, he may be a gentile with a unknown trace of Jewish ancestry.

Rather than any clear sense of what the messiah will be, it’s seem all rather vague. Like interpreting ink splats. There’s doesn’t seem to be any particular sense or inclination of the means in which he accomplishes the task, conception of peace, of his revitalization to God to humanity. I don’t even think the OT scripture writers had any clear sense of this either, but just a nudge, a vague inclination of the messiah.

In some ways some conceptions might be ruled out, a politician who pushed for a genocidal attack on the Palestinians, the bombing of Al-Aqsa mosque to rebuild the temple through force, and military might, likely wouldn’t be your idea of a messiah candidate. In a way the messiah, would at least be in the conception of the Good, and the Moral, of compassion, and mercy, a man whose nature incapsulate the very goodness of God. At least I would think. Embody more the character of men like Rev. King, than Abu Bakr.


I would also think, that Messiah wouldn’t one to make a mockery of human history, of human life, but rather attuned and faithful to it, That it all has moved into it’s various places awaiting his arrival. Rather than a humanity that’s primarily an audience to his revelation, and his ushering in of the messianic age, but a humanity that’s always been an active participants as well. A messiah that doesn’t particularly just speak in terms of Jewish longings, and renewal, but the aches and longings of humanity as a whole.

At least that’s my bias take.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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08-11-2015, 11:28 AM
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(08-11-2015 08:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The point I was making in regards to inconceivability, is that if we were first century Jews, under Roman oppression, it wouldn’t be hard to envision what the messiah would be, fitting into the mold of someone like Simon Bar Kochba, a leader of a violent revolt against rome. Only in his failure was he rejected.

But it’s hard to conceive as to what those expectations for those today would be, even for you. Do you primarily just see it in terms of goals, but not necessarily in regards to means and character? You know what the messiah will do, but can’t particularly form a picture of what he would be like, or the means in which he reveals God to humanity, ushering in peace, or rebuilds the temple?

Where as in a particular climate of first century Jerusalem the messiah might had some expected form, but is that something you on the other hand lack a conception of, of the sort of person he would be?

Even if the entire Jewish population was convinced that one particular guy was the messiah, if the tasks are not completed, then that person was not actually the messiah. It also doesn’t matter what kind of person the Jewish people were expecting at any given point in history. If the tasks are completed, then he’s the messiah. If they’re not completed, then he’s not the messiah.

I’ve heard it said by many, many Christians that the reason that the Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah was because they wanted a war-leader and not some pacifist hippie to be their messiah (as though they get a choice in the matter). Jews do not vote for the messiah; it isn't a popularity contest. This accusation is not even supported by Jewish history. It’s nothing but anti-Semitic rhetoric that been passed down in the church, probably since its inception. It aims to justify Christianity’s faith in Jesus in spite of Jewish rejection –when to the Christian mindset, the Jews should have been the *first* to line up to worship Jesus.

The personality of the messiah is totally irrelevant. His job is to complete the tasks. If he doesn’t complete the tasks, no matter how much we may like him (or dislike him), then he isn’t the guy and our personal feelings had nothing to do with it.

(08-11-2015 08:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...And it doesn’t appear that if the messiah did show up, anyone would be equipped to trace his lineages a couple thousands years back. That was probably not much different in the first century either. Whether or not any person in the first century messiah claimant or not, descended from the line of David would likely be unknown.

There are people today who can trace their lineage back to David. Known lineages are Davidic, Levite, and Kohain. –It’s just that there are more people who don’t know their lineage than who do. Not every Davidic person necessarily realizes that they're Davidic.

Jesus’s lineage is known in Jewish circles. He was not Davidic. In that era, lineages were recorded and stored in the temple. We’ve lost that information with the destruction of the second temple, and the loss of these records is used against us by Christians who insist that without conclusive knowledge of the Davidic line, we won’t be able to identify the messiah when he comes. –Ergo, Jesus must have been the messiah.

(08-11-2015 08:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  My contention, is that while Jesus would have been no ones idea of messiah, 2000 years ago, where expectations of messiah in the first century likely involved a conception of the form he was to take. Modern jewish expectations seem to be all over the place, the messiah can be a cab driver, a generation, as opposed to a single person, he may be a gentile with a unknown trace of Jewish ancestry.

Rather than any clear sense of what the messiah will be, it’s seem all rather vague. Like interpreting ink splats. There’s doesn’t seem to be any particular sense or inclination of the means in which he accomplishes the task, conception of peace, of his revitalization to God to humanity. I don’t even think the OT scripture writers had any clear sense of this either, but just a nudge, a vague inclination of the messiah.

Messianic prophecy started about 3,000 years ago. The reason that the bible doesn’t go into detail about the personality of the Messiah is because the messiah is not preordained. 150 guys could have done the job and any statement about specific personality traits made in the scriptures would have had to apply to each of them, and none of them could have had any traits that could have been viewed as contradictory. -One can be kind and compassionate most of the time, but then occasionally have a bad day and behave insensitively.

(08-11-2015 08:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  In some ways some conceptions might be ruled out, a politician who pushed for a genocidal attack on the Palestinians, the bombing of Al-Aqsa mosque to rebuild the temple through force, and military might, likely wouldn’t be your idea of a messiah candidate. In a way the messiah, would at least be in the conception of the Good, and the Moral, of compassion, and mercy, a man whose nature incapsulate the very goodness of God. At least I would think. Embody more the character of men like Rev. King, than Abu Bakr.

The general expectation among orthodox Jews is that the messiah will be a Torah observant Jew who can effectively communicate to all people regardless of their religious status.

(08-11-2015 08:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I would also think, that Messiah wouldn’t one to make a mockery of human history, of human life, but rather attuned and faithful to it, That it all has moved into it’s various places awaiting his arrival. Rather than a humanity that’s primarily an audience to his revelation, and his ushering in of the messianic age, but a humanity that’s always been an active participants as well. A messiah that doesn’t particularly just speak in terms of Jewish longings, and renewal, but the aches and longings of humanity as a whole.

At least that’s my bias take.

Well, yeah. Yes Given that the messiah is responsible for securing world peace, then I would say that the Jewish view does agree with that.
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