Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
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03-11-2015, 05:27 PM
Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(03-11-2015 05:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  Except the hearsay and the forgeries, of course.

Oh, right - that's most of it. Drinking Beverage

I offer you the similar challenge that I offer to any creationist. Whenever you can offer a more compelling explanation than historicity, you let me know. Your inability to form a compelling alternative explanation, says a great deal about the weakness of your supposed criticisms.

Shifting the burden of proof. You're a broken record of idiotic fallacies

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03-11-2015, 05:32 PM
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
I, too, conclude that there was likely a real Rabbi Yeshua, whose teachings (and probably, summary execution for them) led to the genesis of a cult that would exaggerate and add to those teachings within the following decade, making for a legend of a god-man who died and would soon return as the prophesied one... and yet, I'm an atheist.

Funny, that.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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03-11-2015, 05:40 PM
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(03-11-2015 05:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  Except the hearsay and the forgeries, of course.

Oh, right - that's most of it. Drinking Beverage

I offer you the similar challenge that I offer to any creationist. Whenever you can offer a more compelling explanation than historicity, you let me know.

There is no compulsion to offer an alternative to a claim that lacks good evidence.

Quote:Your inability to form a compelling alternative explanation, says a great deal about the weakness of your supposed criticisms.

I haven't even tried. Why do you think I am unable? Consider

You again leap to conclusions; stop doing that - it's a lazy, dishonest ploy and makes you look like an idiot.

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03-11-2015, 05:44 PM
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(03-11-2015 05:23 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I think our historicities are maybe a tad more different than you realize. Tongue

Never-the-less, I concede the point. I do think that there is a teeny tiny kernel of truth with the story of Jesus.

To some degree, but perhaps not as much as you think. If I was fundie evangelical perhaps. But I'm pretty open to a variety of different historical interpretations, even ones that other Christians would find inimical to their religious beliefs.

If you were to claim things such as Christian theology, and the portrait of Jesus, are contrary to Jewish sensibilities and messianic expectations at the time, that Jesus makes for a bad messiah, I wouldn't disagree with you.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-11-2015, 05:59 PM
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(03-11-2015 05:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 05:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I offer you the similar challenge that I offer to any creationist. Whenever you can offer a more compelling explanation than historicity, you let me know.

There is no compulsion to offer an alternative to a claim that lacks good evidence.

You know, ironically there have been some scientific studies of the jury process that show that one of the primary reasons for false convictions is that juries don't understand the concept of the Burden of Proof. They should find someone innocent when the Prosecution doesn't meet the Burden, yet they often do find them guilty unless the Defense offers a counter-explanation "story" they find more plausible, even though the onus is not on the Defense to explain a damned thing, only to show that the State cannot meet the burden.

Instead, it becomes a contest of "who tells the better story", in defiance of both logic and the entire basis of the legal system of rights. Undecided

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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03-11-2015, 06:25 PM
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(03-11-2015 05:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no compulsion to offer an alternative to a claim that lacks good evidence.

Which is similar to the response offered by creationist when asked to offer a more compelling explanation then the theory of evolution. Rather than a substantive criticism, they offer an arguments that’s nothing short of a semantics, about the definitions of the word “fact”, “evidence”.

The thing worth judging is the reasonableness any particular conclusions drawn from the available material in comparison to alternative conclusions. People who actually want to honestly think through the questions of historicity deal with explanations, and their alternatives, the merit of any particular argument in comparison to others.

Quote:I haven't even tried. Why do you think I am unable

The man who doesn’t even try, and the man unable to do so, bear a striking resemblance to each other. Both have nothing meaningful to offer, one way or the other.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-11-2015, 06:29 PM
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
The idea that Jesus existed isn't that far fetched. It's well documented that many individuals cropped up during this time in the Near East that claimed to be a Messiah of some sort or another. What is rather certain though is that his story is highly exaggerated, as it always is when the fan club's version of events is what gets written down as the biographical account. His followers (AKA: his main salesmen), like the followers of all these other radical cults that were cropping up left and right at the time, believed him to be the greatest thing since whatever their metaphorical equivalent of sliced bread was. So like all fanboys, they lionized him and embellished his accomplishments and made sure to "preserve" his wisdom. It is after all, the followers that make the religion what it is, not the prophet. Any random yooha can suffer a sudden break from reality and claim to be the living embodiment of the deity of their choice. Self-declared prophets are rather common footnotes throughout history, but it takes the backing of effective marketers to be one of the successful few to occupy chapter titles in a history book.

So sure, I could totally buy it that this guy existed, but make no mistake; this is a rather clear case of the legend eclipsing the man.

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03-11-2015, 06:36 PM
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(03-11-2015 05:59 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Instead, it becomes a contest of "who tells the better story", in defiance of both logic and the entire basis of the legal system of rights. Undecided

In this case, it's not so much who tells the better story. But which story/explanation offers a better account of the sources, and materials. Which explanations has the greater explanatory capacity, etc.....

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-11-2015, 06:57 PM
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(03-11-2015 06:25 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 05:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no compulsion to offer an alternative to a claim that lacks good evidence.

Which is similar to the response offered by creationist when asked to offer a more compelling explanation then the theory of evolution. Rather than a substantive criticism, they offer an arguments that’s nothing short of a semantics, about the definitions of the word “fact”, “evidence”.

The thing worth judging is the reasonableness any particular conclusions drawn from the available material in comparison to alternative conclusions. People who actually want to honestly think through the questions of historicity deal with explanations, and their alternatives, the merit of any particular argument in comparison to others.

Quote:I haven't even tried. Why do you think I am unable

The man who doesn’t even try, and the man unable to do so, bear a striking resemblance to each other. Both have nothing meaningful to offer, one way or the other.

Your analogy (which you repeated here) stupidly comparing Creationism with Mythicism is false. You STILL have yet to argue against even ONE of Carrier's or Price's POINTS. Your lame generalizations and vague dancing around the points demonstrates you are not even capable of entering this discussion in an honest way.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-11-2015, 07:04 PM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2015 07:26 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Supposed "evidence" for jesus.
(03-11-2015 06:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your analogy (which you repeated here) stupidly comparing Creationism with Mythicism is false.

And creationist don't like being compared to mythicist. But I don't care. I deal with both often enough, to recognize how their patterns and criticisms have a great deal in common.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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