Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
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03-08-2017, 01:44 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
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03-08-2017, 01:46 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
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03-08-2017, 03:00 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(03-08-2017 12:34 PM)TSG Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 12:22 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Unfortunately and I see this especially with both sides of the Palestien/Israel conflict, is that humans in general when threatened by another group have a hard time seeing the outsider as human, and also have far too much of a tendency to turn to less diplomatic leaders or funders for their side. I hate Bibi for example, but lets face it, Palestine is also widely supported by funding coming from the theocratic states surrounding Israel, maybe not always the government, but certainly sympathizers. Just like America defaults to support of Israel.

It would REALLY help all humans involved on all sides to simply accept the root cause of this, religion itself. No, not saying one can rid any one group off the planet, no, that would be inhuman.

But, Christians and Muslims and Jews all need to start accepting more that religion is a horrible way of conducting political diplomacy precisely because it gets humans to forget the "other" is not really the "other" but the same species.

I am all for blaspheming Islam sure, but not for vilification of individuals you have never met. I will not fear an individual until that individual says or does something to cause me concern.

Just imagine the conflicts and atrocities that could be averted if the belligerents just took the time to see things from the other side's point of view. It's easy to look at religion as the sole perpetrator of this crime, like the crusaders who sang hymns as they slaughtered the innocent in Jerusalem, or the terrorists who screamed their devotion to their god as they crashed into the World Trade Center -- but simply shrugging and saying "religion did it" doesn't solve anything.

First of all, putting religionists into a different category and viewing individual theists as "the enemy" is the exact thing that one would be accusing religion of doing.

Second, people will make excuses to dehumanize people in any circumstances, not just in religions. Just look at the interment of Japanese-Americans, or ethnic cleansing.

I have already established the fact that nobody on any side is going to force any religion out of existence. And it would be inhuman to try if not start WW3 and in that case nobody wins.

But religion IS the cause. It is the cause in the context that humans far too often prioritize the differences as a way to set up social structures, and not enough on seeking what we have in common.

There is unfortunately an evolutionary reason we do this as a species. Religions are mere artificial constructs that mostly get handed down to the next generations by their parents. Now while it does create social structure, far too often, more often than not it ends up pitting one group against another.

Religion is our species reflection of our desire to have control over our environments. Mythology is what religion is called when enough of a society scraps it, but there is no difference other than a still believed religion today is political. But again, I do not say that as a call to force the end of any religion, but more as a wake up call to suggest humans could do better in conflict resolution by recognizing it as the cause.

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03-08-2017, 03:38 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(03-08-2017 01:24 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 12:46 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Oh dear Brian... you firstly claim that I have no right to vilify individuals I've never met, and then do precisely that when you curse me. Quite funny really—obviously irony is lost on you. Big Grin


Each of these examples is a straw man. Sorry mate, but you need to try harder. I'm not talking about America in case you hadn't noticed LOL. And you need to Google "false equivalence" while you're at it.


I thank you for your well moderated and considered opinion Brian, but without your repetitive gutter language it might have had more impact. And your notion that one must have personally met an individual prior to addressing their ethics or motives is really quite naive. Have you ever met Donald Trump or Kim Jong-un or Bashar al-Assad? I thought not, so I can rest my case.

QUOTE ME exactly where I vilified anyone. EXACT WORDS EXACT QUOTE.

My "gutter language"? Really, you think I give one fuck what you think of my word choices? Your words are what get innocent people hurt, not me cussing you out for doing such.

Now you sound exactly like every right wing conservative of any religion. When called out on your bullshit, you try to equate merely getting offended as being the same as advocating harm of others. I don't want you dead simply because I think you are being a fucking asshole. If you think that is the same as what you just posted you are fucking full of shit.

If your attitude its to say "Keep em all out, even before the individual has done anything wrong", sorry, fuck you.

Or does it piss you off that I can blaspheme and ridicule without being a fear mongering demagogue like you just acted like in your post.

All 7 billion of us are human beings. I am sorry that bothers you, but we are. And only ignorant fuck cant tell the difference between human rights and the separate issue of claims.

You didn't post a picture of men in arms, you didn't point out Koran verses, you posted a picture of unarmed civilians. You don't have to like what those girls believe, some of the stuff they may believe I don't like either. And sure, lots of violence does get justified by Islam. But don't you fucking pretend they invented it, or own the sole patent on it, or the girls in that particular picture deserves automatic condemnation.

Again asshole, the west has seen its own history of religious based violence not based on the Koran, but the bible. If the worst you get out of me is "don't be a fucking asshole" you are having a good day.

NOW READ AND REPEAT UNTIL YOU GET IT.

1. It most certainly IS OK to criticize religion even blaspheme religion. I do it too.

2. IT IS NOT OK in doing that to vilify non violent people even if others in their ranks do get violent. Don't fucking tell me that picture indicates to you that those girls will get violent or personally want you dead. I doubt that very seriously.

Brian mate... you really need to lighten up a bit. Tongue I can't even be bothered to respond to this venomous diatribe of yours—which only typifies 99% of your other debates here. Sorry.

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03-08-2017, 04:08 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(03-08-2017 01:07 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Syz, do you consider reverence for the Aussie flag more important than a statement of solidarity or allegiance to the nation itself?

I agree that national flags are ultimately only symbolic, but I also think it's unwarranted to use them in a purely politicised manner as these Muslim girls are. They're wrapping themselves in the Aussie flag in order to deliver a subtle but effective challenge to those people who—like me—are concerned with the insidious encroachment of non-democratic Islamic social values into Australia, and demanding non-inclusive civil rights that impinge on those rights held, absolutely, for more than 200 years by non-Muslim Aussies.

Why do these girls need to make "a statement of solidarity" with the wider population anyway? Why can they not simply be low key about their religious status like us atheists—and Catholics, Jews, Anglicans, and Buddhists? Don't they realise that these sorts of actions can be seen as deliberately inflammatory to a reasonably large part of our population?

In September 2016, The Australian newspaper reported an Essential poll showing 49% of people surveyed were in favour of a ban against Muslims entering Australia. More recently, another Essential poll found 41% of those surveyed supported a Donald Trump-style ban on people from Muslim countries entering Australia.

My guess would be that their parents have put them up to this little pantomime in a hopefully-failed effort to "normalise" the public acceptance of their religious rags, "disguised" as national patriotism.

Quote:I'm an American who has no problem, not a one, with those folks here who would burn the flag of our nation. The reason is because the principles that that flag represents are much more important than the flag itself.

As an Aussie, I can't agree with this. If burning a piece of symbolic cloth is the very best political statement one can make, then one hasn't really got anything much to say of value. And at the end of the day, whatever symbolic value we each attach to our flag, it does publicly demonstrates our national principles, and shouldn't be demonised.

Quote:I would encourage those young ladies to continue on with folding themselves into your society. Ostracizing them over irrational reverence for a symbol only serves to push them back into the religion you despise.

When in fact I'd rather have pushed their parents back to the country whence they came. Problem solved.

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03-08-2017, 04:29 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(03-08-2017 04:08 PM)SYZ Wrote:  I agree that national flags are ultimately only symbolic, but I also think it's unwarranted to use them in a purely politicised manner as these Muslim girls are. They're wrapping themselves in the Aussie flag in order to deliver a subtle but effective challenge to those people who—like me—are concerned with the insidious encroachment of non-democratic Islamic social values into Australia, and demanding non-inclusive civil rights that impinge on those rights held, absolutely, for more than 200 years by non-Muslim Aussies.

Why do these girls need to make "a statement of solidarity" with the wider population anyway? Why can they not simply be low key about their religious status like us atheists—and Catholics, Jews, Anglicans, and Buddhists? Don't they realise that these sorts of actions can be seen as deliberately inflammatory to a reasonably large part of our population?

Why do they need to? You just want them to suppress their thoughts because it makes people feel bad? Dude, that's the same argument Fox News uses against atheist billboards. They're not hurting anyone, and in fact they seem to be indicating that they consider being Australian as an important part of their identity -- equal to their religious beliefs. Would you prefer Muslims who hate Australia?

Quote:In September 2016, The Australian newspaper reported an Essential poll showing 49% of people surveyed were in favour of a ban against Muslims entering Australia. More recently, another Essential poll found 41% of those surveyed supported a Donald Trump-style ban on people from Muslim countries entering Australia.

My guess would be that their parents have put them up to this little pantomime in a hopefully-failed effort to "normalise" the public acceptance of their religious rags, "disguised" as national patriotism.
So you've decided already that Muslims are evil and that any apparent show of patriotism that might contradict that conclusion must be feigned in order to perpetuate an evil Muslim conspiracy?

Quote:As an Aussie, I can't agree with this. If burning a piece of symbolic cloth is the very best political statement one can make, then one hasn't really got anything much to say of value. And at the end of the day, whatever symbolic value we each attach to our flag, it does publicly demonstrates our national principles, and shouldn't be demonised.
"If xenophobia against Muslims is the very best political statement one can make, then one really hasn't got anything much to say of value." Do you see the problem with your special pleading? If the freedom of speech and expression does not extend to the most vile opinions, then it is no freedom at all. That isn't even applicable here, since they're not burning the flags but wearing them with pride.


Quote:When in fact I'd rather have pushed their parents back to the country whence they came. Problem solved.
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03-08-2017, 04:32 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted









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03-08-2017, 04:50 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(03-08-2017 03:38 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 01:24 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  QUOTE ME exactly where I vilified anyone. EXACT WORDS EXACT QUOTE.

My "gutter language"? Really, you think I give one fuck what you think of my word choices? Your words are what get innocent people hurt, not me cussing you out for doing such.

Now you sound exactly like every right wing conservative of any religion. When called out on your bullshit, you try to equate merely getting offended as being the same as advocating harm of others. I don't want you dead simply because I think you are being a fucking asshole. If you think that is the same as what you just posted you are fucking full of shit.

If your attitude its to say "Keep em all out, even before the individual has done anything wrong", sorry, fuck you.

Or does it piss you off that I can blaspheme and ridicule without being a fear mongering demagogue like you just acted like in your post.

All 7 billion of us are human beings. I am sorry that bothers you, but we are. And only ignorant fuck cant tell the difference between human rights and the separate issue of claims.

You didn't post a picture of men in arms, you didn't point out Koran verses, you posted a picture of unarmed civilians. You don't have to like what those girls believe, some of the stuff they may believe I don't like either. And sure, lots of violence does get justified by Islam. But don't you fucking pretend they invented it, or own the sole patent on it, or the girls in that particular picture deserves automatic condemnation.

Again asshole, the west has seen its own history of religious based violence not based on the Koran, but the bible. If the worst you get out of me is "don't be a fucking asshole" you are having a good day.

NOW READ AND REPEAT UNTIL YOU GET IT.

1. It most certainly IS OK to criticize religion even blaspheme religion. I do it too.

2. IT IS NOT OK in doing that to vilify non violent people even if others in their ranks do get violent. Don't fucking tell me that picture indicates to you that those girls will get violent or personally want you dead. I doubt that very seriously.

Brian mate... you really need to lighten up a bit. Tongue I can't even be bothered to respond to this venomous diatribe of yours—which only typifies 99% of your other debates here. Sorry.

I really don't think you understand the difference between merely being told "don't be a fucking dick" and venom.

If you had posted a picture of a known terrorist, then quoted a Koran verse, that would have been one thing. But no, you posted a picture of unarmed civilians CHILDREN, not more than teens. I am simply having a hard time understanding what THOSE GIRLS in that picture would be such a threat to you.

Venom is what you did in your OP. I've even said I also blaspheme religion, including Islam, and if you must know, I find the Hijab very sexist in it's roots. But even that to me is no different than the sexist clothing the Amish and LDS and Mormons depending on family and sect, pressure their females to partake in, even if our federal government does not mandate it, it is still a religious social pressure CHRISTIANS push on females.

Venom, is a word you use to ignore the fact that you pulled in your OP the very same thing you claim to want to fight.

Again.

1. Blasphemy and even ridicule and even cussing is one thing.

2. Venom and demagoguery are when you go beyond that and seek to sell the "otherism". I am not selling "otherism".

Your posting that picture would suggest you want to ban all Muslims from your country, and regardless of what I might have with their religious claims, and I have plenty, in the west we don't merely ban people based on labels. If that is what you are advocating, again, FUCK YOU.

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03-08-2017, 05:04 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(03-08-2017 04:29 PM)TSG Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 04:08 PM)SYZ Wrote:  I agree that national flags are ultimately only symbolic, but I also think it's unwarranted to use them in a purely politicised manner as these Muslim girls are. They're wrapping themselves in the Aussie flag in order to deliver a subtle but effective challenge to those people who—like me—are concerned with the insidious encroachment of non-democratic Islamic social values into Australia, and demanding non-inclusive civil rights that impinge on those rights held, absolutely, for more than 200 years by non-Muslim Aussies.

Why do these girls need to make "a statement of solidarity" with the wider population anyway? Why can they not simply be low key about their religious status like us atheists—and Catholics, Jews, Anglicans, and Buddhists? Don't they realise that these sorts of actions can be seen as deliberately inflammatory to a reasonably large part of our population?

Why do they need to? You just want them to suppress their thoughts because it makes people feel bad? Dude, that's the same argument Fox News uses against atheist billboards. They're not hurting anyone, and in fact they seem to be indicating that they consider being Australian as an important part of their identity -- equal to their religious beliefs. Would you prefer Muslims who hate Australia?

Quote:In September 2016, The Australian newspaper reported an Essential poll showing 49% of people surveyed were in favour of a ban against Muslims entering Australia. More recently, another Essential poll found 41% of those surveyed supported a Donald Trump-style ban on people from Muslim countries entering Australia.

My guess would be that their parents have put them up to this little pantomime in a hopefully-failed effort to "normalise" the public acceptance of their religious rags, "disguised" as national patriotism.
So you've decided already that Muslims are evil and that any apparent show of patriotism that might contradict that conclusion must be feigned in order to perpetuate an evil Muslim conspiracy?

Quote:As an Aussie, I can't agree with this. If burning a piece of symbolic cloth is the very best political statement one can make, then one hasn't really got anything much to say of value. And at the end of the day, whatever symbolic value we each attach to our flag, it does publicly demonstrates our national principles, and shouldn't be demonised.
"If xenophobia against Muslims is the very best political statement one can make, then one really hasn't got anything much to say of value." Do you see the problem with your special pleading? If the freedom of speech and expression does not extend to the most vile opinions, then it is no freedom at all. That isn't even applicable here, since they're not burning the flags but wearing them with pride.


Quote:When in fact I'd rather have pushed their parents back to the country whence they came. Problem solved.
Shocking
I think it would be just as ridiculous for an American white male to wrap themselves in an American flag, but seen plenty of pictures of that in my lifetime.

But the girls in that picture in that moment don't look like they want to hurt anyone but more along the lines they are trying to convey that they want to be part of western society too.

I don't agree with them having to wear a Hijab or even wanting to wear one, but again, in the civil west we don't assume guilt and in that context they don't like like they are a threat.

The girls covering their heads and using religion to justify it to me is no different than the sexist clothing of the Amish and Mormons. And even 100 years ago in America it was widely expected for women to fully cover up even on the beach.

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03-08-2017, 05:37 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
I share SYZ's frustration with these things (Islamism, intolerant attitudes, Jihadism) and get irked with those who brush it off ("Hey, everyone does that shit! Have you so soon forgotten the Trail of Tears???"). But I don't see a problem with the girls in the picture. I agree with:

(03-08-2017 12:13 PM)TSG Wrote:  In fact, why seeing Muslim girls evidently expressing solidarity with your country in the face of the violence of the extremer sects of their faith would anger you is, I confess, baffling to me.

You said the parents might be putting them up to it but if I saw ladies dressed like that with the American flag (I'm American) I'd be like "Hell yeah!" A lot of people (vets mostly) would say it's disrespectful but I would take those girls' hearts to be in the right place, as in, we don't feel like aliens and strangers here, and people who have a stake in something and feel like a part of something tend not to threaten it.

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