Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
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05-08-2017, 05:52 PM (This post was last modified: 05-08-2017 06:01 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(05-08-2017 05:40 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  I'll bite. Why is Australia having problems integrating Muslims into their society?

I'll advance an hypothesis. Indonesians are one of the largest group of immigrants in Australia. They are poor, brown and almost systematically Muslim. In the Autralian society, they occupy pretty much the same position than Mexicans in the US for example. Their different cultural norms and apperence makes them easy to recognise, identify and marginalise as they are used to scapegoat some structural problems in the Autralian society like social inequalities, unemployment or crime. At the same time, their lack of financial power and weak social connectivity leads them to occupy low pay jobs and poor neighborhoods, making them ''the face of poverty'' in Australia. Thus the ''Indonesian problem'' has been enlarged to a ''Muslim problem'' when the Middle East exploded again after 20 years of relative calm following the war in Afghanistan and, especially, the war in Iraq which injected a hefty dose of violence and trauma within Muslim communities and the diaspora of various countries now distabilised or at war. In resumé, they are different and are poor thus they aren't liked by many, which leads them to be more likely to remain poor and different, which then reinforce this sense of them being strangers who can't/won't adapt themselves.

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05-08-2017, 05:54 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(05-08-2017 05:40 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 02:55 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Obviously you guys are having problems integrating them into society. Have you ever stopped to wonder why?

I'll bite. Why is Australia having problems integrating Muslims into their society?

They're worried they might mate with the aboriginals. With good reason it seems.




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05-08-2017, 06:30 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(05-08-2017 05:52 PM)epronovost Wrote:  I'll advance an hypothesis. Indonesians are one of the largest group of immigrants in Australia. They are poor, brown and almost systematically Muslim. In the Autralian society, they occupy pretty much the same position than Mexicans in the US for example. Their different cultural norms and apperence makes them easy to recognise, identify and marginalise as they are used to scapegoat some structural problems in the Autralian society like social inequalities, unemployment or crime. At the same time, their lack of financial power and weak social connectivity leads them to occupy low pay jobs and poor neighborhoods, making them ''the face of poverty'' in Australia. Thus the ''Indonesian problem'' has been enlarged to a ''Muslim problem'' when the Middle East exploded again after 20 years of relative calm following the war in Afghanistan and, especially, the war in Iraq which injected a hefty dose of violence and trauma within Muslim communities and the diaspora of various countries now distabilised or at war. In resumé, they are different and are poor thus they aren't liked by many, which leads them to be more likely to remain poor and different, which then reinforce this sense of them being strangers who can't/won't adapt themselves.

Well said and you make a strong case. I think I tend out of frustration to underestimate the alienation immigrants must feel entering western nations from fairly damaged third world nations; partly it's a matter of expectations, the streets are not paved in gold and many of the natives are xenophobic assholes. So yes, there cannot help but be some resentment. Here is where I have a disconnect:

Quote:...following the war in Afghanistan and, especially, the war in Iraq which injected a hefty dose of violence and trauma within Muslim communities and the diaspora of various countries now distabilised or at war.

This is a huge causal leap, the dots don't connect. This is not an excuse for violence or plotting violence, especially against innocent people, likely to be women and children, on an airplane or bus or whatever (some of whom may be Muslim!). I say "excuse" but I know you are not excusing the behavior of terrorists but I believe this is not even an explanation, at least not a rational one. Why don't illegal Mexican immigrants pull this stuff in America?

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05-08-2017, 06:32 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(05-08-2017 05:54 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  They're worried they might mate with the aboriginals. With good reason it seems.




Wait a second...is that a white guy?

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05-08-2017, 06:34 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(05-08-2017 06:32 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 05:54 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  They're worried they might mate with the aboriginals. With good reason it seems.




Wait a second...is that a white guy?

No, that's a didgeridoo. Rolleyes

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05-08-2017, 08:36 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(05-08-2017 06:30 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  This is a huge causal leap, the dots don't connect. This is not an excuse for violence or plotting violence, especially against innocent people, likely to be women and children, on an airplane or bus or whatever (some of whom may be Muslim!). I say "excuse" but I know you are not excusing the behavior of terrorists but I believe this is not even an explanation, at least not a rational one. Why don't illegal Mexican immigrants pull this stuff in America?

Its not a rational explanation because the root causes of violence and terrorism aren't very rational either. They are deeply emotional. What terrorist want to fight and kill isn't innocent people, it's the society, the politics and the beliefs of those people. They attack their ''true ennemies'' through normal people. Terrorists don't celebrate the death of their victims, they celebrate its negative impact on the society, the beliefs and the politics they wanted gone in the first place.

If we take the examples of Mexican in America, the minority of them who commit violence in an organised fashion do it through criminal gangs because they are the vehicles, the organisations, the ''communities'' that uses and perpetuate violence in their subculture. In Muslim communities, it's Radical-Islamist groups. In White communities it's neo-nazis and Sovereign Citizens. In Asian communities it's mafias and ultra-nationalist groups, etc. All these groups share the same function, they funnel and instrumentalise the desire for violence and confrontation of individuals and give it a greater purpose and meaning that makes it legitimate or even virtuous in the eyes of those who will perpetrate it.

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05-08-2017, 09:17 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(05-08-2017 05:40 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 02:55 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Obviously you guys are having problems integrating them into society. Have you ever stopped to wonder why?

I'll bite. Why is Australia having problems integrating Muslims into their society?

My point was that his sort of stereotyping is probably going to alienate them.
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06-08-2017, 08:27 AM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(05-08-2017 11:19 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 02:37 AM)SYZ Wrote:  And I also note that nobody who's bad-mouthed my personal opinions has been able to make me aware of any religiously-motivated terrorist plots planned, and/or carried out on Australian soil by Catholics, Jews, Anglicans, or Buddhists. I wonder why?

Now, of course, I would like you to explain me how does this question, that could easily be answered by a simple wikipedia article, has any relevance on how the Muslim community in general should be treated.

You obviously missed the part of my question that specifically asked for examples of religiously-motivated acts of terrorism on AUSTRALIAN soil. Other than that shortcoming, the very few examples of non-Islamic terrorism (which you've not provided any citation for I note) are all 30 or 40 years old.

Is that really the best you can do to contradict my claims?

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06-08-2017, 08:49 AM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(05-08-2017 05:52 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 05:40 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  I'll bite. Why is Australia having problems integrating Muslims into their society?

I'll advance an hypothesis. Indonesians are one of the largest group of immigrants in Australia.

No; absolutely wrong. At the 2016 Australian census, Indonesian immigrants comprised only 73,213 persons; Mainland China 509,555; India 455,389; Vietnam 219,355.

Quote:They are poor, brown and almost systematically Muslim. In the Australian society, they occupy pretty much the same position than Mexicans in the US for example.

Nope.

Quote:Their different cultural norms and appearance makes them easy to recognise, identify and marginalise as they are used to scapegoat some structural problems in the Australian society like social inequalities, unemployment or crime.

Nope.

Quote:At the same time, their lack of financial power and weak social connectivity leads them to occupy low pay jobs and poor neighborhoods, making them ''the face of poverty'' in Australia.

Nope. And the remainder of your "hypothesis"is just as laughably inaccurate. Do you even have the vaguest idea of Australian society, our immigration, politics, or economics? I think not.

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06-08-2017, 11:30 AM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2017 12:18 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(06-08-2017 08:49 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Nope. And the remainder of your "hypothesis"is just as laughably inaccurate. Do you even have the vaguest idea of Australian society, our immigration, politics, or economics? I think not.

No, I have absolutly no idea on how the Australian society, your immigration, politics and economic works. I simply translated the situation in Canada, a similar country with similar level of economical development, demographic and numerous historical similarities to Australia. I am extremely surprise to learn that Australian Muslim, particularly the recent immigrant wave comming from Bangladesh, India and Pakistan are just as financially successful as White Australians and face almost no issue of discrimination in employment and housing, amongst other thing, due to their appearence and different social codes. I am also surprised and extremely happy to note that centuries of White Supremacist policies were discarded much more efficently in Australia than in Canada for example. I would have liked some resources on the subject to further my knowledge and prove what you are positing there, because, frankly, if that's the case, Australia needs to be studied on how they solved this issue which is a massive sociological problem and a fundamental structural crisis in many countries.

On your other point, the list of terrorist attack I gave is a copy paste from a wikepedia article on terrorist attacks committed in Australia. Islamit terror attacks started aroud ten years ago when attacks from Christian, neo-nazis and crazy Jim Jones-like sect stopped. Considering that the presence of a significant minority of Muslim in Australia preceed those Islamic terror attack by decades, I would posit that the relationship between terror attack and Muslim is small. The positive relationship would be between social revolutionnary ideology and terrorism. At the moment, Islamism is hte face, arms and legs of violent revolutionnary movement in the world. Its the msot efficient and the most widespraid, in the 30's it was fascists and communists, in the 60 and 70's it was ethno-nationalist (thus attacks committed by Croatian nationalist), after that it was cults who were trying to revive the Hippie movement, then, after the fall of the Soviet Union, it was neo-nazi and Militia movements, now its Islamist, tomorrow who knows what it will be. Where are you going with that knowledge? How does it change anything about the Muslim community in Australia?

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