Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
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10-08-2017, 08:34 AM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
This may be one of those threads I get to the end of and wonder: What the fuck were we arguing about? You probably feel the same way.

(09-08-2017 08:57 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Indeed religion, and more precisely Radical Islamism, has a role to play on terrorist violence by providing said terrorist with a group identifier on which they can build and justify their action.

Total agreement. I prefer group identifiers like Mormonism or Hinduism, if it has to be a religious one.

Quote: Islamist terrorists aren't violent because they are religious, but their religion is a fundamental part of how they organise themselves as well as an integral part of their social project should they triumph.

But the fundamental part of how they (Islamic terrorists) organize themselves is with violence, dictated by their religion! If the religion was non-violent, the fundamental part of how they organize themselves would not be with violence. A Christian (or atheist) who feels humiliated, powerless, angry, etc. might drink themself into oblivion or commit suicide. Or yes, lash out in various murderous rages. But if part of the "fundamental part of how they organize themselves" is religiously inspired martyrdom designed to maximum loss of infidel life, that's a huge problem. But it sounds like we are talking in circles, kind of chicken or egging it. You may have the last word on it, sir!

Quote: Thus, if you want to address Islamist terrorism, it's mostly useless to address Islam, even their particular vision of Islam, but you need to address their sense of utter humiliation, powerlessness and desire of vengeance against those they perceived have wronged them.

I think steps can be taken in that direction. And it must be balanced by a ruthless intolerance for violence against innocent civilians.

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10-08-2017, 10:32 AM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(10-08-2017 08:34 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  But the fundamental part of how they (Islamic terrorists) organize themselves is with violence, dictated by their religion! If the religion was non-violent, the fundamental part of how they organize themselves would not be with violence. A Christian (or atheist) who feels humiliated, powerless, angry, etc. might drink themself into oblivion or commit suicide. Or yes, lash out in various murderous rages. But if part of the "fundamental part of how they organize themselves" is religiously inspired martyrdom designed to maximum loss of infidel life, that's a huge problem. But it sounds like we are talking in circles, kind of chicken or egging it. You may have the last word on it, sir!

Most Islamist terrorist would espouse competing ideology should Radical-Islam wasn't a viable solution. They would be ethno-nationalist extremist for example or communist like the PKK or the largely secular Fatah. There is no shortage of ideology that can be used to organise and justify organised violence. Hell, they could even be like post-invasion taliban and be a third ethono-nationalist, a third Radical Islamist and a third good old fashion drug lords.

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10-08-2017, 01:56 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(08-08-2017 06:21 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(08-08-2017 05:41 PM)Dr H Wrote:  Which Muslim countries, if I may ask?

Iran, in the 70s, and Saudi Arabia, in the 90s.

That IS serious experience; I am impressed.

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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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10-08-2017, 02:10 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(08-08-2017 06:28 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  That's fair enough. However, unlike nations, which execute one foreign policy with one intended result,
While that may be the intention, whether it is true in practice is certainly debatable.

Our foreign policy in the Middle East, for example, was at one time to cultivate and support secular assets like Saddam.
Then a bunch of neocons wedge their way into the White House, and the policy is suddenly "regime change".

Indeed, I'd say that a lack of consistency in foreign policy has been responsible for some of the major problems we face today.

Quote:you and I both know that faiths are not only fractured into schisms, but that (unlike nations) have very little objective definition.
Of course. With the possible exception of faiths that acknowledge a strong central authority.

Quote:I am American; I was born here and carry our passport. I live here. There is no question that I live under American law and break it at my own risk.

But for this or that believer: their birth-religion may be important, but because it is subjective (for being based on subjective interpretations of texts), you cannot say that there is objective equivalence. "The Nation of Islam", indeed, is rejected by most Muslims. Smile
Sure, which is one reason why there are internecine religious conflicts.

Quote:They do have constituent members, religions. But there's no getting around the fact that John Doe's take on Southern Extraneous Baptist doctrine may well be different than Jane Does's ... and that is my point. If John goes and shoots up an abortion clinic, what good does it do yelling at Jane when she was just treated there four months ago?
Granted. But I don't see this being much different with political entities. One American's take on US middle east policy might be that we should tople their governments, take their oil, and force democracy on them at gunpoint; another American might agree with sending in the troops, but only to depose a dictator and give the people a chance to form their own government and develop their own resources. Both views are encompassed by the foreign policy expressed in the past two decades.

Governments are religion without the supernatural elements; every aspect of them is open to interpretation.

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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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10-08-2017, 08:26 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
One's citizenship, however, is an objective fact with an objective definition, which was my point. The same cannot be said for any religion that I know of.
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11-08-2017, 04:03 PM
RE: Sydney Terrorist Airplane Plot: ISIS Bomb Attack Thwarted
(10-08-2017 08:26 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  One's citizenship, however, is an objective fact with an objective definition, which was my point. The same cannot be said for any religion that I know of.

Again, granted.

Remember, though, that just as one is born into one's religion, so one is born into their citizenship. Either one may be changed later on, but that first association is a simple matter of birth location, and that's pretty objective.

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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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