Sympathy For Eve
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28-05-2012, 08:37 PM
Sympathy For Eve
A thought experiment, designed to put yourself in shoes that you've probably never considered stepping into, which will show you how faith is unhelpful at best and disastrous at worst.

Pretend you are Eve, the mythical first woman. You've been put into paradise with exactly one command -- don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Simple enough, right? I'm sure it would be if you were in that situation, but I'm going to remind you that you are Eve. You have no experience with "commands". God's told you that it will cause you to die, but you have no idea what that is, either. You do not yet have knowledge of good and evil, so those are just abstract concepts at best. There's no reason to follow this command, but fortunately for you, you don't eat from the Tree of Name is Too Long.

Along comes the snake. He tells you that it's alright to eat from the Tree of etc., and now you're presented with a dilemma: do you trust the snake or do you trust God? Eve had no tools except faith. She didn't understand science or logic, and had no way of testing either the snake or God, but in that situation I'm doubtful that we could, either. She had never been presented with lies and probably didn't know that it was possible to lie. And so she trusted the snake. And if you think about it, wouldn't you?

Now a Christian might argue that there are reasons to trust God over random talking snakes, but that Christian is not actually putting himself or herself into Eve's position. Eve didn't understand reason. She did not have the tools to figure out which of them was right and which of them was wrong.

I don't believe the story of Adam and Eve and I don't believe in God, but it's only a thought experiment designed to show you this: faith is a horrible tool for divining the truth. It's all Eve had, and it led her to make the wrong decision. A person guided by faith alone, given two options in which he or she can place faith, has no standard for deciding which of these is the better decision. If one person lies to you and the other tells you the truth, will faith discern the truth? Of course not. And it didn't work for Eve.

Christians feel safe putting faith in God and his word, but why? If you've always trusted God and put your faith in Him, then how would you know if He was lying to you? To assume that he never lies is circular reasoning, since you lack a standard that can test it. If you believe that you supplement faith with reason, I'd love to know why you use faith at all if you understand the value of reason... if you have reason, faith becomes unnecessary.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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28-05-2012, 08:55 PM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
Can't read Ancient Near Eastern myths with 21 Century worldview. Not about faith, sin, evil.

Thrown out of "paradise", for attempt to "eat" from Tree, (of Knowedge of Good AND Evil). Not about the apple. The attempt, (attempting to avoid the human condition..and need to make choices original meaning of myth, (which was common theme in Ancient Near East..see Taimet / Marduk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat

Hijacked by later cults to justify "salvation" paradigm. "Sin" not original meaning of the myth. Original theme - Chaos vs. Order.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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29-05-2012, 04:56 AM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
(28-05-2012 08:55 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Can't read Ancient Near Eastern myths with 21 Century worldview. Not about faith, sin, evil.

Thrown out of "paradise", for attempt to "eat" from Tree, (of Knowedge of Good AND Evil). Not about the apple. The attempt, (attempting to avoid the human condition..and need to make choices original meaning of myth, (which was common theme in Ancient Near East..see Taimet / Marduk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat

Hijacked by later cults to justify "salvation" paradigm. "Sin" not original meaning of the myth. Original theme - Chaos vs. Order.

Well, if I had to make a comparison to another culture I'd draw a line to Pandora's box. There's no reason to assume that "sin" is not the original meaning -- it could very well be the early explanation for evil in the world.

Regardless, the story of Adam and Eve is just a side note. The main theme of my story is that faith can and will lead you to disastrous consequences.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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29-05-2012, 05:05 AM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2012 05:38 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Sympathy For Eve
(29-05-2012 04:56 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(28-05-2012 08:55 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Can't read Ancient Near Eastern myths with 21 Century worldview. Not about faith, sin, evil.

Thrown out of "paradise", for attempt to "eat" from Tree, (of Knowedge of Good AND Evil). Not about the apple. The attempt, (attempting to avoid the human condition..and need to make choices original meaning of myth, (which was common theme in Ancient Near East..see Taimet / Marduk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat

Hijacked by later cults to justify "salvation" paradigm. "Sin" not original meaning of the myth. Original theme - Chaos vs. Order.

Well, if I had to make a comparison to another culture I'd draw a line to Pandora's box. There's no reason to assume that "sin" is not the original meaning -- it could very well be the early explanation for evil in the world.

Regardless, the story of Adam and Eve is just a side note. The main theme of my story is that faith can and will lead you to disastrous consequences.



Pandora is similar, but Greek. This is Ancient Semitic. YOU started your thread with the word "Eve". Do you know where the concept of "sin" came from ? (or "faith" for that matter). You drew a conclusion about "faith" from an unsound premise. No ? When I saw your title, I thought, "oh, finally, the first wife will get some credit". You DO know EVE was not the first wife. Lilith was the first wife, who was dumped, as she was too powerful. (Lilith was created of the SAME earth at the SAME time). Later, Eve was created from Adam's rib, (to define her "secondary"/subservient position). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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29-05-2012, 09:20 AM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2012 10:00 AM by LadyJane.)
RE: Sympathy For Eve
Also, every animal there were friends with Adam and Eve. That means with EVERY animal, lions, wolves, sheep, sharks, etc, Eve trusted completely and without a doubt. Having NEVER been tricked, fooled or deceived, a talking and friendly snake told and convinced her to eat the apple (she did not come up with the idea herself).

I saw a tattoo on a girl once, it read "I like apples and I'm not afraid of snakes". That was one of my 'aha' moments for the ridiculousness of this scenario.
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29-05-2012, 09:23 AM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
How is she supposed to know the snake is evil when she doesn't know good from evil?

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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29-05-2012, 10:46 AM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
Seems to me ... if God created everything, he created the snake. If he didn't know the snake would advise Eve incorrectly or contrary to his commands, that pretty much negates any omniscience one can attribute to God. Not to mention, this omniscience would have provided a clue to understanding Eve's trusting, gullible nature.

God creates a female and immediately sets her up as the fall guy in his little boy world.
God created sexism; what an asshole. Undecided



The only thing I've ever taken away from the bible is that this God character, is completely untrusting of his little "experimental subjects", and childishly resorts to tricks to "test" them. Pretty insecure and spiteful for a God.
If this God is supposed to be the "Father", he's a shitty parent. If a God has no faith in humans, then there really is no reason for humans to have faith in that God.

*****
I've always felt pissed off for the Eve character in particular; she was completely dumped on and then expected to be the Mother of all humankind. She was probably so sick of men just fucking her over. She was probably happy as hell to just finally die.

Humanity is lucky I don't believe this shit .... it practically justifies being a knee-jerk, hardcore, militant feminist. Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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29-05-2012, 12:02 PM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
They had to come up with a reason for why life sucked so badly.
Couldn't be god's fault.
Couldn't be man's fault.
Blame it on women. That's the ticket.
Now it all makes sense. We can all rest easy now knowing who screwed up the world. Dodgy

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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29-05-2012, 01:01 PM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
An overlooked part of this story is that God is the one who's duplicitous; the snake tells the truth.

God tells Adam and Eve they'd better not eat the forbidden fruit, because on the day they eat it, they'll die. That's a lie. They eat it, they don't die. (The standard "explanation"--that what God really meant was they would become mortal on that day--won't wash. That's not what the text says. It says very clearly: eat the fruit, you'll die the same day.)

After the fruit course, God plays a game with Adam, asking "Where are you? Who told you you were naked? Did you eat the fruit I told you not to eat?" God is omniscient; he already knows the answer to all these questions. He's like the parent who sees their little boy with chocolate and cookie crumbs smeared across his face and says, "Tommy, did you eat those cookies? Did you???" An honest parent, or an honest God, would ask why, not whether.

The snake says to Eve, "If you eat that fruit you won't die." He's right, at least about the fact that she won't die for a very long time. Of course he doesn't tell her that because of this absolutely horrible transgression, she and the rest of female humanity will be punished with painful childbirth until the end of time. But you can't blame the snake for that: he's not omniscient and has no way of foreseeing God's hissy fit.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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29-05-2012, 08:24 PM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
(29-05-2012 10:46 AM)kim Wrote:  Seems to me ... if God created everything, he created the snake. If he didn't know the snake would advise Eve incorrectly or contrary to his commands, that pretty much negates any omniscience one can attribute to God.
Ricky Gervais made this point, too, wondering aloud "where was God while the snake was tempting Eve?"




My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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