Sympathy For Eve
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29-05-2012, 08:49 PM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
(29-05-2012 05:05 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Pandora is similar, but Greek. This is Ancient Semitic. YOU started your thread with the word "Eve". Do you know where the concept of "sin" came from ? (or "faith" for that matter). You drew a conclusion about "faith" from an unsound premise. No ? When I saw your title, I thought, "oh, finally, the first wife will get some credit". You DO know EVE was not the first wife. Lilith was the first wife, who was dumped, as she was too powerful. (Lilith was created of the SAME earth at the SAME time). Later, Eve was created from Adam's rib, (to define her "secondary"/subservient position). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith
You know, you talk with condescension ("You DO know...") and seem to assume that everything you've heard about mythology must be true. Step back a bit and take a deep breath.

Yes, I know Pandora is a Greek myth and Eve is a Jewish myth. They don't have to come from the same culture to be analogous. Because it is such an old myth and not one that we have a commentary on by its author, it's fair to say that neither of us know with confidence why this myth was written. I have a guess and you have a guess, and there's nothing wrong with contributing yours... but you've got to recognize it as mere hypothesis. I'm not asserting mine as any more than that, either. A "reason to assume that it is about sin" might be because it's an origin story of sin. It contains two sinless characters who disobey God, which according to Jews and Christians alike is sinful. It's the first recorded sin in the bible. Whether or not it is derived from another myth about Lilith, it doesn't have to have the same point or thesis as the myth it was derived from.

But that's all beside the main point and really is unimportant to sharing my conclusion. The main point was about faith. You call my argument unsound but don't say why. I'll make it easy for you and put it in a logic format so you can point out exactly where it is unsound.

1. Eve, in the Eden myth, had a dilemma between following God's command or following the snake's.

2. Eve's only tool for making her choice was faith.

3. Eve's choice led to what is generally considered to be the wrong conclusion.

Conclusion: Therefore faith led Eve to make the wrong conclusion. It can be inducted that since Eve is not an exception in regards to faith, any person could also make a wrong decision by faith.

Now we're not arguing about opinions but point of fact. If you believe that my premises or conclusion is wrong, I've laid it out easy so you can attack the part that you believe does not follow or is false.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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30-05-2012, 03:14 AM (This post was last modified: 30-05-2012 07:16 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Sympathy For Eve
(29-05-2012 08:49 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Step back a bit and take a deep breath.



1. If I need any advice, I'll be sure and ask, (speaking of condescension).

2. The concept of "faith" had not arisen in the history of human ideas, at that point, which is why I asked you if you knew when it did. It would have been a meaningless concept to those writers. It is YOUR modern overlay, slapped onto an ancient culture, which knew nothing about it. There are many reasons why it is NOT just my "guess". There are many scholars of the Torah that have discussed this myth, and it's meaning, and almost all agree with me. What are your references ? See Martin Buber's "Good and Evil". As I said, it IS NOT an "origin story of sin", myth. THAT is precisely what I am saying it is NOT. As Buber, and the Torah scholars explain, it IS about "chaos and order". It is NOT about "two sinless characters". THAT is the Christian mistaken overlay. It is NOT about "disobedience". That is PRECISELY what it is NOT about. The myth is about the Human Condition, and the impossibilty of "encompassing the opposites", (allegorically stated as "eating the apple" from the Tree of Knowledge of BOTH "good and evil"). They could NOT BOTH "eat the apple, and NOT eat the apple". "Chaos" is "not making a choice". THAT is not "sin". You THINK it's about "sin" because that's what the Christians taught you, because they hijacked the myth to fit their salvation paradigm.

No one even actually reads the words anymore. They "think" they know the story, but don't look at the text. Genesis 3:5 says " "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." The temptation, as is obvious, right in front of our faces, is NOT about apple injestion, (disobedience), it's a mythological/allegorical attempt to "become like a god".

THAT is what it's about. It's NOT a disobedient apple ingestion. Your explanation, while nice, is not consistent with the text. An attempt to "be like god", and an attempt to (not make a moral choice), and encompass the opposites (chaos), IS what the myth is about.

It is also NOT about "faith". That also is Christian later overlay, and contortion. You have driven an ancient Chaos myth over the cliff, because you, (just as almost ALL Christians and modern humans) read it ONLY with simplistic 21st Century eyes. They were, (mythologically) "driven from paradise", (the primordial "moral innocence"), NOT because they "disobeyed", but because they failed to recognize and accept one of the most important facts about the Human Condition ... the need to make (moral) choices, (AND attempted to "be like God"). Show me ONE scholar of the ancient Torah that agrees with you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith#Judaism

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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30-05-2012, 03:19 PM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
Genesis 3:14 "and god said, now I'll never get the smell off those fish".

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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30-05-2012, 04:29 PM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
(30-05-2012 03:14 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  1. If I need any advice, I'll be sure and ask, (speaking of condescension).

Yeah, it all must be true because you put it in capital letters and keep insisting on it. Also, it's written in books. Bucky, let me be honest with you: most of your posts are worthless. They're heavily laden with bias, and you are clearly irrational. Even when I agree with you I find that you came to a rational conclusion purely by chance. And I'm tired of fighting arguments that I can't win because my opponent to blind to the fact that he or she could possibly be wrong.

I'm tired of irrationality, and I'm tired of you. Don't want my advice? That's fine, I wouldn't expect someone who sees himself as incapable of wrong to be able to do anything useful with advice, but it makes me personally feel better to have done what I can.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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30-05-2012, 05:02 PM (This post was last modified: 30-05-2012 07:32 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Sympathy For Eve
That's what usually happens when I challenge those who make up stuff about the bible.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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30-05-2012, 06:59 PM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
Whoa.... Calm down everybody.

Starcrash and Bucky: This really isn't my place, seeing as I respect both of you, and your posts ( I have been lurking quite a while.) I just think both of you shouldn't rip each other apart.

My answer to the topic: Eve, to me, was working on the fact that eating the fruit, like the Bucky said, will cause them to be LIKE God. Imagine that you were a creation of God, without the right from good and evil. And somebody told you you could be like your Creator. Morals aside, faith aside. How I interpretted it was that Eve wanted to be like God because she wanted to be Good Like God, that, and she got conned by the serpent.

( BTW... Isn't the serpent a symbol for a rival "god" in the old days?)

And the point everybody almost forgets, which I point out because I think it shows a flawed God, is the fact that God Lied... He said that they would die from eating the fruit, but the snake, who is supposed to be evil, actually was the one that told the truth! ( Which raises two questions, How did the snake know that information in the first place, and why the fuck does he talk.)

Why would a perfect being need to LIE to keep them from eating the tree, why not... Oh, I don't know.... NOT create the damn thing in the first place!

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30-05-2012, 07:13 PM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
(30-05-2012 03:14 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(29-05-2012 08:49 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Step back a bit and take a deep breath.




1. If I need any advice, I'll be sure and ask, (speaking of condescension).

2. The concept of "faith" had not arisen in the history of human ideas, at that point, which is why I asked you if you knew when it did. It would have been a meaningless concept to those writers. It is YOUR modern overlay, slapped onto an ancient culture, which knew nothing about it. There are many reasons why it is NOT just my "guess". There are many scholars of the Torah that have discussed this myth, and it's meaning, and almost all agree with me. What are your references ? See Martin Buber's "Good and Evil". As I said, it IS NOT an "origin story of sin", myth. THAT is precisely what I am saying it is NOT. As Buber, and the Torah scholars explain, it IS about "chaos and order". It is NOT about "two sinless characters". THAT is the Christian mistaken overlay. It is NOT about "disobedience". That is PRECISELY what it is NOT about. The myth is about the Human Condition, and the impossibilty of "encompassing the opposites", (allegorically stated as "eating the apple" from the Tree of Knowledge of BOTH "good and evil"). They could NOT BOTH "eat the apple, and NOT eat the apple". "Chaos" is "not making a choice". THAT is not "sin". You THINK it's about "sin" because that's what the Christians taught you, because they hijacked the myth to fit their salvation paradigm.

No one even actually reads the words anymore. They "think" they know the story, but don't look at the text. Genesis 3:5 says " "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." The temptation, as is obvious, right in front of our faces, is NOT about apple injestion, (disobedience), it's a mythological/allegorical attempt to "become like a god".

THAT is what it's about. It's NOT a disobedient apple ingestion. Your explanation, while nice, is not consistent with the text. An attempt to "be like god", and an attempt to (not make a moral choice), and encompass the opposites (chaos), IS what the myth is about.

It is also NOT about "faith". That also is Christian later overlay, and contortion. You have driven an ancient Chaos myth over the cliff, because you, (just as almost ALL Christians and modern humans) read it ONLY with simplistic 21st Century eyes. They were, (mythologically) "driven from paradise", (the primordial "moral innocence"), NOT because they "disobeyed", but because they failed to recognize and accept one of the most important facts about the Human Condition ... the need to make (moral) choices, (AND attempted to "be like God"). Show me ONE scholar of the ancient Torah that agrees with you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith#Judaism


Do students of the ancient Torah hold the defining answer? I think not.

It seems odd utilizing authority figures to write about myths..................

Myths as seen as myth are open for extrapolation as one sees fit IMO.
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30-05-2012, 07:51 PM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
(30-05-2012 07:13 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Do students of the ancient Torah hold the defining answer? I think not.


Depends on what the question is. Should never have followed down the rabbit hole. Due to past, am too sensitive to obviously illogical interpretations. He can make up anything he wants. Should just butt out. Everyone makes up their own version. Usually the fundies. If one is looking for original one, maybe Torah scholars can help, which is my interest. Obviously, almost everyone could care less what origianl meaning was. Essentially was a strawman. Got sucked in. Lesson learned.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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30-05-2012, 09:45 PM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
(30-05-2012 06:59 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Whoa.... Calm down everybody.

Starcrash and Bucky: This really isn't my place, seeing as I respect both of you, and your posts ( I have been lurking quite a while.) I just think both of you shouldn't rip each other apart.

My answer to the topic: Eve, to me, was working on the fact that eating the fruit, like the Bucky said, will cause them to be LIKE God. Imagine that you were a creation of God, without the right from good and evil. And somebody told you you could be like your Creator. Morals aside, faith aside. How I interpretted it was that Eve wanted to be like God because she wanted to be Good Like God, that, and she got conned by the serpent.

( BTW... Isn't the serpent a symbol for a rival "god" in the old days?)

And the point everybody almost forgets, which I point out because I think it shows a flawed God, is the fact that God Lied... He said that they would die from eating the fruit, but the snake, who is supposed to be evil, actually was the one that told the truth! ( Which raises two questions, How did the snake know that information in the first place, and why the fuck does he talk.)

Why would a perfect being need to LIE to keep them from eating the tree, why not... Oh, I don't know.... NOT create the damn thing in the first place!

The story about Eve DOESN'T MATTER. I tried so hard to get away from it and this just isn't working.

Let me start over, since there seems to be this huge hangup on the actual myth that I was using just as a thought experiment (I used the phrase "thought experiment", right?). Instead, we have this random person that we'll call Bob. Bob has to make a life-changing decision of some random sort (make one up) and decides that faith is the best way to make this decision. His friend John suggests one choice and his friend Tom suggests another choice. Will he make the "best" choice that benefits himself and others by taking John's advice simply because he trusts John more?

I posit that if it turns out to be the best choice then it will happen purely by chance. Faith doesn't have the power to help us with decision-making, but only to justify our decisions after the fact. At least if it turns out badly Bob can blame John, or if it turns out well Bob can pat himself on the back for taking John's advice. John could be wrong, and because of that simple and obvious fact, Bob can be wrong after taking his advice.

Bucky, you said my argument wasn't sound. I laid it out for you as a logical argument and you still addressed it (except your unsupported assertion that it was unsound, which I have addressed). Do you have anything to say about the actual topic at hand? Can you drop the Eve myth (that is completely irrelevant, especially now that I've replaced it with a complete hypothetical)?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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30-05-2012, 10:30 PM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
(30-05-2012 09:45 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Bucky, let me be honest with you: most of your posts are worthless. They're heavily laden with bias, and you are clearly irrational. Even when I agree with you I find that you came to a rational conclusion purely by chance.

Do you have anything to say about the actual topic at hand?


You're kidding, right ?
Once down the rabbit hole was enough.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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