Sympathy For Eve
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31-05-2012, 05:46 AM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
(30-05-2012 09:45 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(30-05-2012 06:59 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Whoa.... Calm down everybody.

Starcrash and Bucky: This really isn't my place, seeing as I respect both of you, and your posts ( I have been lurking quite a while.) I just think both of you shouldn't rip each other apart.

My answer to the topic: Eve, to me, was working on the fact that eating the fruit, like the Bucky said, will cause them to be LIKE God. Imagine that you were a creation of God, without the right from good and evil. And somebody told you you could be like your Creator. Morals aside, faith aside. How I interpretted it was that Eve wanted to be like God because she wanted to be Good Like God, that, and she got conned by the serpent.

( BTW... Isn't the serpent a symbol for a rival "god" in the old days?)

And the point everybody almost forgets, which I point out because I think it shows a flawed God, is the fact that God Lied... He said that they would die from eating the fruit, but the snake, who is supposed to be evil, actually was the one that told the truth! ( Which raises two questions, How did the snake know that information in the first place, and why the fuck does he talk.)

Why would a perfect being need to LIE to keep them from eating the tree, why not... Oh, I don't know.... NOT create the damn thing in the first place!

The story about Eve DOESN'T MATTER. I tried so hard to get away from it and this just isn't working.

Let me start over, since there seems to be this huge hangup on the actual myth that I was using just as a thought experiment (I used the phrase "thought experiment", right?). Instead, we have this random person that we'll call Bob. Bob has to make a life-changing decision of some random sort (make one up) and decides that faith is the best way to make this decision. His friend John suggests one choice and his friend Tom suggests another choice. Will he make the "best" choice that benefits himself and others by taking John's advice simply because he trusts John more?

I posit that if it turns out to be the best choice then it will happen purely by chance. Faith doesn't have the power to help us with decision-making, but only to justify our decisions after the fact. At least if it turns out badly Bob can blame John, or if it turns out well Bob can pat himself on the back for taking John's advice. John could be wrong, and because of that simple and obvious fact, Bob can be wrong after taking his advice.

Bucky, you said my argument wasn't sound. I laid it out for you as a logical argument and you still addressed it (except your unsupported assertion that it was unsound, which I have addressed). Do you have anything to say about the actual topic at hand? Can you drop the Eve myth (that is completely irrelevant, especially now that I've replaced it with a complete hypothetical)?
Faith is a bad decision maker.... Without anything else, such as drive the need, it could put you in a place you don't like.

Faith, alone, is a horrible way to make decisions, and can lead to a dangerous result.

I think I answered it now.

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22-07-2012, 12:35 AM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2012 01:28 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Sympathy For Eve
So I decided I do have some sympathy for Eve. (sincere apologies to Starcrash).

I still firmly hold to my views about Genesis being based on the Sumerian Chaos myths, and that was their original meaning, but two things have come to my attention.
a. The injunction against eating from the Tree, was given only to the man by the god. Somehow, we are to assume, (and we know), Eve found out, but we are not told how she found out.
b. The god lied to the man, because the injunction was followed by the false threat , ("you will die").
Well, they didn't die.

So if "all of creation" fell with them, (as we are to believe by theologians), how would they know what death was, before it had even happened ?
They couldn't. They were expected to understand, that which they could not, and be threatened by that which they knew not.

"The woman "saw that it was good for food, pleasing to the eye, and desirable for gaining wisdom".

So there obviously something that was missing in the "un-fallen" woman, if she could imagine a more perfect state. So the "fall" kind of screws itself.

This introduces the element, I think, which is very similar to the Greek tragic theme of unintended consequences, (or unable to be seen consequences), seen in Prometheus, and Oedipus, for example. Since the Promethius myth predated the assemblage of the Genesis threads, and we know syncretism was alive and well with respect to the Greek and Sumerians, I'm thinking there is a remnant here of the Greek idea of tragedy also, and we were meant to see it.

What do ya think ?

Talk among yourselves. Tongue

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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22-07-2012, 12:56 AM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
(28-05-2012 08:37 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Now a Christian might argue that there are reasons to trust God over random talking snakes, but that Christian is not actually putting himself or herself into Eve's position. Eve didn't understand reason. She did not have the tools to figure out which of them was right and which of them was wrong.
Let me first start by saying that I truly enjoyed this thought experiment. I am a huge proponent of experimental philosophy! I don't think we do it enough. The last sentence of your post, moreover, seems priceless.

I quoted this particular part of your post because I am alluded to the verse in the Bible where God commands his followers to act as faithful children:
Quote:At that time, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." -Matthew 18:1-4
In this situation, Eve is the most innocent, humbled creature in the eyes of an all-powerful, all-knowing God.
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22-07-2012, 01:04 AM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
Depends. If she looks like Roseanne, no. If she looks like Gwynnies, yeah. I'm shallow like that. Evil_monster

Because fuck that book. Tongue

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22-07-2012, 07:08 PM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
How Eve died.

[Image: eve1.jpg]

[Image: eve2.jpg]

[Image: eve3.jpg]

[Image: eve4.jpg]

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22-07-2012, 07:45 PM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
There's a point here worthy of discussion, which is that Eve
had not yet been created when God issued the instruction to Adam to not eat
from the tree of knowledge. Note the wording there - "But of the
tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it."

After Adam gets this instruction, then God decides Adam needs a help mate and
creates all the animals. Apparently God fucked up because after Adam
named all the animals God observed that Adam still did not have a help
mate. Yes I know, this tends to suggest that god is neither omniscient
nor perfect, but move along people, nothing to see here, keep moving!

So God takes another whack at a help mate and makes Eve from Adam's rib.
Note that Adam did not ask for a help mate, so this is just God deciding he
needs one and producing Eve on the second try.

Now, this is a bit of a tangent but note that after Adam
receives Eve, Adam says "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my
flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore
shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife:
and they shall be one flesh.”

Hmmm, check out the big brain on Adam! He hasn’t eaten the apple yet, so he still
has no knowledge, but suddenly he knows about a father (which he doesn’t have)
and a mother (which he doesn’t have) and also has some idea about
marriage. How could he have this
knowledge? Has he already eaten an
apple?

So back to Eve. Does
Eve help Adam as god intended the “help mate” do to? Nooooooo!
She engages in conversation with the serpent who asks her what she
understands about eating from the trees in the garden and she says "We may
eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden, But of the fruit of the tree which
is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither
shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

So Adam got the instruction directly from God in terms of
the "tree of knowledge" but Eve gets the instruction second-hand,
presumably from Adam (since Eve wasn't around when God instructed Adam) in
terms of "the tree which is in the midst of the garden." Why the different explanation? Was there any confusion here?

Then Eve displays a surprising level of knowledge, as she
"saw" that the tree was good for food (can you look at something you
have no knowledge of and have never tasted and "see" that it is good
for food?) She is also said to have
desired the fruit because it would make her wise? How does she even understand what it means to
be wise? How can she grasp that she is
lacking anything or any awareness?

The serpent tells her, first hand, that "God doth know
that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be
as gods, knowing good and evil."

For all she knows the serpent is a messenger of God giving
her a new first-hand instruction which replaces the instruction she got
second-hand from (presumably) Adam. This
is also suggested by the fact that the serpent is unique among the animals in
its ability to speak. For all we know,
God deliberately sent the serpent as a messenger with new instructions.

This stuff is so fucked up you really have to be deluded to believe it or so afraid of and uninterested in reality that you don't bother to do more than scan it.
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22-07-2012, 07:46 PM
RE: Sympathy For Eve
Take the snake out of the picture altogether: don't you think Eve was screwed by the negative suggestion in the first place?

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