Synthetic life.
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27-03-2013, 11:16 AM
RE: Synthetic life.
(27-03-2013 10:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 10:53 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Instead of wasting our time just making the baseless claim they are not the same, how about you point out the differences.


For the umpteenth time?

There is no evidence of the existence of any goals in biological evolution. No goals, no direction, no path, no progress; just a blind algorithm that operates in the here and now.

Computer simulated evolution also operate via a blind algorithm that operates in the here and now....so how are they different?
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27-03-2013, 11:50 AM
RE: Synthetic life.
(27-03-2013 10:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 10:53 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Instead of wasting our time just making the baseless claim they are not the same, how about you point out the differences.


For the umpteenth time?

There is no evidence of the existence of any goals in biological evolution. No goals, no direction, no path, no progress; just a blind algorithm that operates in the here and now.

Then why is so important for an organism to perpetuate his existence?

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27-03-2013, 12:10 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(27-03-2013 10:53 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 10:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, biological evolution isn't a special case - your goal-directed computer program is the special case. They are not the same.

Instead of wasting our time just making the baseless claim they are not the same, how about you point out the differences.

If you can't tell the difference from a computer run simulation in a hard coded system vs a biological system, then you have some serious issues to deal with. Yes they are both electromagnetic phenomenon, but the processes are different.. Also, computer algorithms regarding evolution are not "Goal directed", they follow the principles of chaos theory and system and environmental feedback.. But if you need a big difference, the major one is that one is simulated on a computer using binary code and electron based processing regarding the principles of evolution, and the other is done naturally in a real world environment from which are biochemical ion based processes the computer simulation is being modeled after. Next, the computer itself can not evolve, it can only run a simulation of those processes. Computers are not biological systems, nor do they fall under biochemical systems that can self-replicate ect.. So if you can't tell the difference between a computer and a living organism, you have a problem.
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27-03-2013, 12:12 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(27-03-2013 11:50 AM)KVron Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 10:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  For the umpteenth time?

There is no evidence of the existence of any goals in biological evolution. No goals, no direction, no path, no progress; just a blind algorithm that operates in the here and now.

Then why is so important for an organism to perpetuate his existence?


To reproduce.

The way evolution works is very simple.
Successful organisms (those that survive to reproduce) pass along their DNA which builds successful organisms.
Unsuccessful organisms don't pass along their unsuccessful DNA.

It's pretty much that simple.

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27-03-2013, 12:15 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(27-03-2013 11:16 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 10:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  For the umpteenth time?

There is no evidence of the existence of any goals in biological evolution. No goals, no direction, no path, no progress; just a blind algorithm that operates in the here and now.

Computer simulated evolution also operate via a blind algorithm that operates in the here and now....so how are they different?


Of course we can create software that embodies mutation and selection without goals. That would be a simulation of biological evolution.

But you keep pushing for programs that have goals.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-03-2013, 12:20 PM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2013 03:49 PM by TheJackal.)
RE: Synthetic life.
(27-03-2013 11:50 AM)KVron Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 10:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  For the umpteenth time?

There is no evidence of the existence of any goals in biological evolution. No goals, no direction, no path, no progress; just a blind algorithm that operates in the here and now.

Then why is so important for an organism to perpetuate his existence?

Simply because it can.. Learn something about reactionary systems and systems with feedback. Chaos theory might be something you might like to look into regarding systems with feedback, and where forces come together with feedback you have patterns that emerge, complexity that arises, and what seems to appear to be goals become emergent properties of the system.. Your question would be like asking why is it so important for a drop of water to cause ripples and waves in a glass of water should it fall into the glass.. Evolution isn't even an algorithm, it's interacting forces, energy processing itself and interfering with itself, it's mostly electromagnetic phenomenon to which can have very complex interactions and processes that make the world as it is.. Everything is energy driven evolution, and everything is in the constant state of change to which even includes the vacuum of space. And with infinite time scales, I dare ask what goal is it do you think an ever changing existence is supposedly supposed to meet or is supposedly headed to?

The principles of evolution in a general context are literally inherent of reality.. That sandy beach isn't the same as it was 1 second ago, and nor is the worlds weather system exactly the same it was a second ago. Those shore lines, those tectonic plates, and even your life and understanding of yourself is constantly evolving.. And evolving doesn't necessarily mean to improve. Evolution in biology can lead to the extinction of a species just as the evolution of the tectonics of our planet can lead to the break up of a continent, or even the erasure of a Island. Everywhere you look, the world is changing.. And that is the basic principle of what evolution entails. Hence don't think of it as goal driven, think of it as a system of change within a chaotic system of interacting forces in which feedback plays an important role in the emergence of outcomes.. In fact these are the fundamental principles in which also govern behaviors, behavioral evolution, and even the complexity of human relative morality. So depending how you process reality, interact, and see yourself in reality, all of which are dependent on system feedback, you could either become , for example, a sane person or someone who becomes psychopathic. Heck, just how your brain develops as an embryo could determine the outcome of your entire life for better or worse.
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27-03-2013, 12:32 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(27-03-2013 12:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 11:50 AM)KVron Wrote:  Then why is so important for an organism to perpetuate his existence?

To reproduce.

Isn't that a goal?

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27-03-2013, 12:49 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(27-03-2013 12:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 11:16 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Computer simulated evolution also operate via a blind algorithm that operates in the here and now....so how are they different?


Of course we can create software that embodies mutation and selection without goals. That would be a simulation of biological evolution.

But you keep pushing for programs that have goals.

Have you ever seen evolution simulated without goals? I have...... you don't get cummulative selection which is a hallmark of biological evolution.

If you know of an evolution simulator which doesn't use a fitness goal but still results in cumulative selection...I would be very interested in seeing it.
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27-03-2013, 12:59 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(27-03-2013 12:20 PM)TheJackal Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 11:50 AM)KVron Wrote:  Then why is so important for an organism to perpetuate his existence?

Simply because it can.. Learn something about reactionary systems and systems with feedback. Chaos theory might be something you might like to look into regarding systems with feedback, and where forces come together with feedback you have patterns that emerge, complexity that arises, and what seems to appear to be goals become emergent properties of the system.. Your question would be like asking why is it so important for a drop of water to cause ripples and waves in a glass of water should it fall into the glass.. Evolution isn't even an algorithm, it's interacting forces, energy processing itself and interfering with itself, it's mostly electromagnetic phenomenon to which can have very complex interactions and processes that make the world as it is.. Everything is energy driven evolution, and everything is in the constant state of change to which even includes the vacuum of space. And with infinite time scales, I dare ask what goal is it do you think an ever changing existence is supposedly supposed to meet or is supposedly headed to?

The principles of evolution in a general context are literally inherent of reality.. That sandy beach isn't the same as it was 1 second ago, and nor is the worlds weather system exactly the same it was a second ago. Those shore lines, those tectonic plates, and even your life and understanding of yourself is constantly evolving.. And evolving doesn't necessarily mean to improve. Evolution in biology can lead to the extinction of a species just as the evolution of the tectonics of our planet can lead to the break up of a continent, or even the erasure of a Island. Everywhere you look, the world is changing.. And that is the basic principle of what evolution entails. Hence don't think of it as goal driven, think of it as a system of change within a chaotic system of interacting forces in which feedback plays an important role in the emergence of outcomes.. In fact these are the fundamental principles in which also govern behaviors, behavioral evolution, and even the complexity of human relative morality. So depending how you processes reality, interact, and see yourself in reality, all of which are dependent on system feedback, you could either become , for example, a sane person or someone who becomes psychopathic. Heck, just how your brain develops as an embryo could determine the outcome of your entire life for better or worse.

I think you are confusing descent w/change and change. Just because a sandy beach changes doesn't mean it evolved. To evolve requires descent.

I agree that evolution is an emergent process
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27-03-2013, 02:29 PM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2013 03:50 PM by TheJackal.)
RE: Synthetic life.
(27-03-2013 12:59 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 12:20 PM)TheJackal Wrote:  Simply because it can.. Learn something about reactionary systems and systems with feedback. Chaos theory might be something you might like to look into regarding systems with feedback, and where forces come together with feedback you have patterns that emerge, complexity that arises, and what seems to appear to be goals become emergent properties of the system.. Your question would be like asking why is it so important for a drop of water to cause ripples and waves in a glass of water should it fall into the glass.. Evolution isn't even an algorithm, it's interacting forces, energy processing itself and interfering with itself, it's mostly electromagnetic phenomenon to which can have very complex interactions and processes that make the world as it is.. Everything is energy driven evolution, and everything is in the constant state of change to which even includes the vacuum of space. And with infinite time scales, I dare ask what goal is it do you think an ever changing existence is supposedly supposed to meet or is supposedly headed to?

The principles of evolution in a general context are literally inherent of reality.. That sandy beach isn't the same as it was 1 second ago, and nor is the worlds weather system exactly the same it was a second ago. Those shore lines, those tectonic plates, and even your life and understanding of yourself is constantly evolving.. And evolving doesn't necessarily mean to improve. Evolution in biology can lead to the extinction of a species just as the evolution of the tectonics of our planet can lead to the break up of a continent, or even the erasure of a Island. Everywhere you look, the world is changing.. And that is the basic principle of what evolution entails. Hence don't think of it as goal driven, think of it as a system of change within a chaotic system of interacting forces in which feedback plays an important role in the emergence of outcomes.. In fact these are the fundamental principles in which also govern behaviors, behavioral evolution, and even the complexity of human relative morality. So depending how you processes reality, interact, and see yourself in reality, all of which are dependent on system feedback, you could either become , for example, a sane person or someone who becomes psychopathic. Heck, just how your brain develops as an embryo could determine the outcome of your entire life for better or worse.

I think you are confusing descent w/change and change. Just because a sandy beach changes doesn't mean it evolved. To evolve requires descent.

I agree that evolution is an emergent process

Firstly your sentence makes no coherent sense (with change and change?).. 2ndly, There is no decent without change.. Hardly confusing the two. And yes if a sandy beach changes it has become a product of evolutionary principles. It is constantly evolving.. The grains of sand constantly get arranged into new sequences and pattens just as does the process of reproduction cause differences and variation in the sequence of DNA. If you want to understand the basic principles of evolution, emergence, and chaos theory, these are a good example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWpRjiUBiDg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVjr4mii3cE


The processes are different with different results, but the principles are the same. Small changes due to interacting forces and feedback bring forth larger changes, new patterns, new sequences, differences in structure, and new outcomes..This is in fact principles we find regarding protein folding, and they are entirely results of chemical reactions and feedback to which are for the most part governed by electromagnetism if we ignore gravity and pressure waves to which also contribute to evolutionary processes.. We can also demonstrate the formation of new Islands with underwater volcanoes, but the point of this is to demonstrate fundamental principles to which also apply to biological systems. Hence you In fact can not have reproduction without errors and differences within the passing of DNA through natural reproduction. And that ignores environmental feedback and influences to which have an impact on the variation and outcome over time scales regardless of how small or great.. Evolution is guaranteed just on that fact alone.. In fact, changes in environment can completely stop the reproduction of a species and cause them to go extinct, and that is called natural selection.

If you want the short answer.. It's all energy driven. But you can feel free to demonstrate for us life, evolution, or changes in living organisms without electromagnetism.. That ought to be interesting..
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