Synthetic life.
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27-03-2013, 03:23 PM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2013 03:26 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Synthetic life.
(27-03-2013 12:49 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 12:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  Of course we can create software that embodies mutation and selection without goals. That would be a simulation of biological evolution.

But you keep pushing for programs that have goals.

Have you ever seen evolution simulated without goals? I have...... you don't get cummulative selection which is a hallmark of biological evolution.

If you know of an evolution simulator which doesn't use a fitness goal but still results in cumulative selection...I would be very interested in seeing it.

Actually it's pretty amazing. When you remove selection pressures, genetic variation goes up. Since pretty much all strategies are working you get some pretty interesting results.

When you reapply selection pressures a large extinction event will take place. Those with certain variations, usually a really small population will survive. Playing with evolution sims I've been able to reproduce that several times.

I know you want evolution to have a goal but it doesn't. Life has goals, such as maintain homeostasis, possess a capacity to grow, respond to stimuli and reproduce.

Evolution just explains how through reproduction life adapts to changes. That's it.

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27-03-2013, 03:25 PM
Synthetic life.
(27-03-2013 12:32 PM)KVron Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 12:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  To reproduce.

Isn't that a goal?

For each individual involved in the process of evolution. But not for evolution. It's also not a goal for change but simply for perpetuating existence.
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27-03-2013, 03:29 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(27-03-2013 12:32 PM)KVron Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 12:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  To reproduce.

Isn't that a goal?


That is, arguably, a goal of the organism. It is not an evolutionary goal.

The algorithm does not have a goal towards which results are directed.

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27-03-2013, 03:44 PM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2013 06:10 PM by TheJackal.)
RE: Synthetic life.
(27-03-2013 03:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 12:32 PM)KVron Wrote:  Isn't that a goal?


That is, arguably, a goal of the organism. It is not an evolutionary goal.

The algorithm does not have a goal towards which results are directed.

To make this point even more clear to him, if the algorithm had a set goal, each time he ran it the outcome would produce the same result. However that's not what he would get.
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28-03-2013, 12:13 AM
RE: Synthetic life.
(27-03-2013 03:44 PM)TheJackal Wrote:  To make this point even more clear to him, if the algorithm had a set goal, each time he ran it the outcome would produce the same result. However that's not what he would get.

Why then is convergent evolution common?
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28-03-2013, 04:12 AM
RE: Synthetic life.
(28-03-2013 12:13 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 03:44 PM)TheJackal Wrote:  To make this point even more clear to him, if the algorithm had a set goal, each time he ran it the outcome would produce the same result. However that's not what he would get.

Why then is convergent evolution common?


Not again.Weeping

Because environments are similar, organisms will end up similarly suited to those similar environments.

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28-03-2013, 08:55 AM (This post was last modified: 28-03-2013 08:58 AM by houseofcantor.)
RE: Synthetic life.
(28-03-2013 04:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-03-2013 12:13 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Why then is convergent evolution common?


Not again.Weeping

Because environments are similar, organisms will end up similarly suited to those similar environments.

Of course, again. Peeps should have an operator's licence for faith... Dodgy

And! An intelligent designer cannot be God.

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28-03-2013, 02:08 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(28-03-2013 04:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-03-2013 12:13 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Why then is convergent evolution common?


Not again.Weeping

Because environments are similar, organisms will end up similarly suited to those similar environments.

Jackal claimed that if evolutionary algorithm had a goal the results would be replicated. I was pointing out to him that the results of evolution are very often replicated and for the very reasons you specified.

Anyways Chas, I'm still waiting for you to produce an example of simulated biological evolution that doesn't use a fitness goal and still results in cumulative selection.
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28-03-2013, 04:14 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(28-03-2013 02:08 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-03-2013 04:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  Not again.Weeping

Because environments are similar, organisms will end up similarly suited to those similar environments.

Jackal claimed that if evolutionary algorithm had a goal the results would be replicated. I was pointing out to him that the results of evolution are very often replicated and for the very reasons you specified.

Anyways Chas, I'm still waiting for you to produce an example of simulated biological evolution that doesn't use a fitness goal and still results in cumulative selection.

Swimbots.

There is no fitness function. Just food that re-spawns over time, and simulated beings capable of movement, and reproduction.

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28-03-2013, 04:19 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(28-03-2013 02:08 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-03-2013 04:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  Not again.Weeping

Because environments are similar, organisms will end up similarly suited to those similar environments.

Jackal claimed that if evolutionary algorithm had a goal the results would be replicated. I was pointing out to him that the results of evolution are very often replicated and for the very reasons you specified.

Anyways Chas, I'm still waiting for you to produce an example of simulated biological evolution that doesn't use a fitness goal and still results in cumulative selection.


Why are you waiting for that?
I never offered to provide such a thing and don't see what it has to do with the discussion.

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