Synthetic life.
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28-03-2013, 04:45 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(28-03-2013 04:14 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(28-03-2013 02:08 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Jackal claimed that if evolutionary algorithm had a goal the results would be replicated. I was pointing out to him that the results of evolution are very often replicated and for the very reasons you specified.

Anyways Chas, I'm still waiting for you to produce an example of simulated biological evolution that doesn't use a fitness goal and still results in cumulative selection.

Swimbots.

There is no fitness function. Just food that re-spawns over time, and simulated beings capable of movement, and reproduction.

The fitness function of swimbots is reproduction.

If you go to the swimbots website, and watch the YouTube video on thier page the video itself says there are two goals....reproduction and eating.
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28-03-2013, 04:48 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(28-03-2013 04:45 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-03-2013 04:14 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Swimbots.

There is no fitness function. Just food that re-spawns over time, and simulated beings capable of movement, and reproduction.

The fitness function of swimbots is reproduction.

If you go to the swimbots website, and watch the YouTube video on thier page the video itself says there are two goals....reproduction and eating.


Organisms consume food/energy and reproduce. Those aren't 'fitness functions' of evolution, those are simply the functions of living.

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28-03-2013, 05:57 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(28-03-2013 04:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-03-2013 04:45 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The fitness function of swimbots is reproduction.

If you go to the swimbots website, and watch the YouTube video on thier page the video itself says there are two goals....reproduction and eating.


Organisms consume food/energy and reproduce. Those aren't 'fitness functions' of evolution, those are simply the functions of living.

No Chas, those organisms which are better at finding food and mates get their genes passed on. Those which aren't don't get their genes passed on. Its the same as those organism which best chase the red dot get their genes passed on...those which are not so good at chasing the red dot don't get their genes passed on.
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28-03-2013, 06:03 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(28-03-2013 05:57 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-03-2013 04:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  Organisms consume food/energy and reproduce. Those aren't 'fitness functions' of evolution, those are simply the functions of living.

No Chas, those organisms which are better at finding food and mates get their genes passed on. Those which aren't don't get their genes passed on. Its the same as those organism which best chase the red dot get their genes passed on...those which are not so good at chasing the red dot don't get their genes passed on.


But that is not a goal of evolution, that is a goal of life - of living.

Evolution is change in fitness, not just fitness.

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28-03-2013, 06:09 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(28-03-2013 06:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-03-2013 05:57 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  No Chas, those organisms which are better at finding food and mates get their genes passed on. Those which aren't don't get their genes passed on. Its the same as those organism which best chase the red dot get their genes passed on...those which are not so good at chasing the red dot don't get their genes passed on.


But that is not a goal of evolution, that is a goal of life - of living.

Evolution is change in fitness, not just fitness.

Chas, watch the fricken swimbots video. The "food" is a dot. But instead of the dot being red its yellow. If chasing a red dot is a goal, so is chasing a yellow dot even if you label that yellow dot "food".
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28-03-2013, 06:14 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(28-03-2013 06:09 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-03-2013 06:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  But that is not a goal of evolution, that is a goal of life - of living.

Evolution is change in fitness, not just fitness.

Chas, watch the fricken swimbots video. The "food" is a dot. But instead of being red its yellow. If chasing a red dot is a goal, so is chasing a yellow dot even if you label that yellow dot "food".


You are not understanding the difference between goals for an organism and goals for evolution. They are not even close to the same thing.

This makes all of your previous misunderstanding understandable.

That organisms have goals is very clear. That in no way implies there are goals to evolution.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-03-2013, 06:26 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(28-03-2013 04:45 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-03-2013 04:14 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Swimbots.

There is no fitness function. Just food that re-spawns over time, and simulated beings capable of movement, and reproduction.

The fitness function of swimbots is reproduction.

If you go to the swimbots website, and watch the YouTube video on thier page the video itself says there are two goals....reproduction and eating.

Hahaha That's the function of any animal. With out reproduction the survival of the species comes into question.

Evolution explains how one animal can become another. If evolution has any goal it's to explain a natural phenomena. By tweaking the environment you can watch how the bots change over time to overcome selection pressures.

Does the survival of a species = goal of evolution, no. Because the extinction of animals is also explained by evolution. Which means death also plays an integral part of explaining how animals change over time.

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28-03-2013, 09:15 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(27-03-2013 12:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 11:16 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Computer simulated evolution also operate via a blind algorithm that operates in the here and now....so how are they different?


Of course we can create software that embodies mutation and selection without goals. That would be a simulation of biological evolution.

But you keep pushing for programs that have goals.

(28-03-2013 06:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-03-2013 06:09 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Chas, watch the fricken swimbots video. The "food" is a dot. But instead of being red its yellow. If chasing a red dot is a goal, so is chasing a yellow dot even if you label that yellow dot "food".


You are not understanding the difference between goals for an organism and goals for evolution. They are not even close to the same thing.

This makes all of your previous misunderstanding understandable.

That organisms have goals is very clear. That in no way implies there are goals to evolution.

Who sets the goals for the organism?

The entire swimbot system takes a distinctive predictable path. Organism start out with poor abilities to eat and reproduce but over succesive generstions they get better at these life functions. Run the simulation again...same thing happens. Run the simulation again.....same thing happens. Run the simulation again....same thing happens.....ad infinitum.
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28-03-2013, 09:23 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(28-03-2013 06:26 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(28-03-2013 04:45 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The fitness function of swimbots is reproduction.

If you go to the swimbots website, and watch the YouTube video on thier page the video itself says there are two goals....reproduction and eating.

Hahaha That's the function of any animal. With out reproduction the survival of the species comes into question.

Evolution explains how one animal can become another. If evolution has any goal it's to explain a natural phenomena. By tweaking the environment you can watch how the bots change over time to overcome selection pressures.

Does the survival of a species = goal of evolution, no. Because the extinction of animals is also explained by evolution. Which means death also plays an integral part of explaining how animals change over time.

Evolution isn't exclusive to biology.

Anyways in the video, the goals of eating and reproducing were set by the author of the computer program. Who sets the goals of the organism in natural evolution?
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28-03-2013, 09:24 PM
RE: Synthetic life.
(28-03-2013 09:15 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 12:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  Of course we can create software that embodies mutation and selection without goals. That would be a simulation of biological evolution.

But you keep pushing for programs that have goals.

(28-03-2013 06:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  You are not understanding the difference between goals for an organism and goals for evolution. They are not even close to the same thing.

This makes all of your previous misunderstanding understandable.

That organisms have goals is very clear. That in no way implies there are goals to evolution.

Who sets the goals for the organism?

The entire swimbot system takes a distinctive predictable path. Organism start out with poor abilities to eat and reproduce but over succesive generstions they get better at these life functions. Run the simulation again...same thing happens. Run the simulation again.....same thing happens. Run the simulation again....same thing happens.....ad infinitum.


No one set the goals for the organism.

In the simulation, the programmer set it up. It's a simulation.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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