Synthetic life.
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25-03-2013, 12:37 AM
RE: Synthetic life.
(24-03-2013 04:40 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, AtotheT.

Miller-Urey for sure shows that amino acids can form. Fox shows that microspheres can form (a candidate for cellular membranes). But there's still a jump we haven't hurdled and that is, does/did all of this lead to life?

Hey, Vosur.

Quote:I think you misunderstood what I said. Heywood argues that a successful creation of life in a lab (human technology) shows that life on Earth could have originated as the creation of intelligent beings. I responded that this argument doesn't work unless you assume that these "intelligent beings" who supposedly created us possessed our technology. His argument would be a non-sequitur otherwise, since showing that human technology can create life doesn't prove that alien technology can do the same.

I gotta disagree, brother.

If I start a fire in laboratory conditions using matches, then I know that fire can be caused deliberately by an entity with an intellect (instead of mindless phenomena like lava or lightning).

In no way shape or form is any other intellect, known or hypothetical, required to use matches to start a fire. The can rub sticks, strike flint, use a zippo, use a blowtorch, fire their Illudium Pu-36 Explosive Space Modulator, doesn't matter. We know that the technology (the idea) is possible. The application (the thing or the method) is irrelevant.

However, what this doesn't prove is three things:
1 - THAT an intellect created life on Earth
2 - WHO that intellect is
3 - WHAT application they used





Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

I agree. It only proves that intelligent design of life is a demonstrable fact. Meanwhile, life occurring naturally in process devoid of intellect is merely an assertion.
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25-03-2013, 01:08 AM
RE: Synthetic life.
(24-03-2013 02:32 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(24-03-2013 01:41 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Also you make an error here. You assume no intellect or technology existed and therefore labratory created life is not evidence that intellect could have created life on this planet. An assumption is contained in your conclusion.
I suggest you to re-read my response to Ghost and the post you're replying to, because neither did I make these assumptions, nor does my argument rely on them.

Vosur, you claimed my argument fails right off the bat and only works if we assume the existence of a intellect. If it fails right off the bat but works if we assume the existence of an intellect, you must be assuming there is no intellect otherwise you could not say it fails.

I understand the point you are trying to make. You are saying if there is no intellect then no intellect could have created life. It is a valid point but it is also dependent on probability. How likely is it that an intellect designed and constructed life on this planet depends on how likely an intellect existed at the time life originated on this planet.
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25-03-2013, 01:27 AM (This post was last modified: 25-03-2013 01:30 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Synthetic life.
(25-03-2013 01:08 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Vosur, you claimed my argument fails right off the bat and only works if we assume the existence of a intellect. If it fails right off the bat but works if we assume the existence of an intellect, you must be assuming there is no intellect otherwise you could not say it fails.
Assuming that intelligent beings who are capable of creating life (other than humans, that is) exist is unreasonable since neither you, nor anyone else has brought forth even one shred of evidence to support their existence. Non-existence is obviously always the null hypothesis.

(25-03-2013 01:08 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I understand the point you are trying to make. You are saying if there is no intellect then no intellect could have created life.
Well, not exactly. I'm saying that your argument is fallacious because its conclusion doesn't follow from its premises unless you make the aforementioned - currently unsupported - assumption.

(25-03-2013 01:08 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  It is a valid point but it is also dependent on probability. How likely is it that an intellect designed and constructed life on this planet depends on how likely an intellect existed at the time life originated on this planet.
No offense, but you're not explaining this in an intelligible manner. As I've said before, we're not talking about random, repeatable experiments, so I don't see how probabilities have anything to do with the topic of discussion.

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25-03-2013, 01:47 AM
RE: Synthetic life.
(25-03-2013 01:27 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(25-03-2013 01:08 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Vosur, you claimed my argument fails right off the bat and only works if we assume the existence of a intellect. If it fails right off the bat but works if we assume the existence of an intellect, you must be assuming there is no intellect otherwise you could not say it fails.
Assuming that intelligent beings who are capable of creating life (other than humans, that is) exist is unreasonable since neither you, nor anyone else has brought forth even one shred of evidence to support their existence. Non-existence is obviously always the null hypothesis.

(25-03-2013 01:08 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I understand the point you are trying to make. You are saying if there is no intellect then no intellect could have created life.
Well, not exactly. I'm saying that your argument is fallacious because its conclusion doesn't follow from its premises unless you make the aforementioned - currently unsupported - assumption.

(25-03-2013 01:08 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  It is a valid point but it is also dependent on probability. How likely is it that an intellect designed and constructed life on this planet depends on how likely an intellect existed at the time life originated on this planet.
No offense, but you're not explaining this in an intelligible manner. As I've said before, we're not talking about random, repeatable experiments, so I don't see how probabilities have anything to do with the topic of discussion.

Vosur you are confusing a claim that an intellect could have originated life on this planet with the claim that an intellect did originate life on this planet.

The theistic world view hinges on the possibility that an intellect can originate life. The atheistic word view hinges on the possibility life can originate via abiogenesis. Synthetic life demonstrates a necessary component of the theistic world view.
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25-03-2013, 02:02 AM
RE: Synthetic life.
(25-03-2013 01:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(25-03-2013 01:27 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Assuming that intelligent beings who are capable of creating life (other than humans, that is) exist is unreasonable since neither you, nor anyone else has brought forth even one shred of evidence to support their existence. Non-existence is obviously always the null hypothesis.

Well, not exactly. I'm saying that your argument is fallacious because its conclusion doesn't follow from its premises unless you make the aforementioned - currently unsupported - assumption.

No offense, but you're not explaining this in an intelligible manner. As I've said before, we're not talking about random, repeatable experiments, so I don't see how probabilities have anything to do with the topic of discussion.

Vosur you are confusing a claim that an intellect could have originated life on this planet with the claim that an intellect did originate life on this planet.

The theistic world view hinges on the possibility that an intellect can originate life. The atheistic word view hinges on the possibility life can originate via abiogenesis. Synthetic life demonstrates a necessary component of the theistic world view.

No it doesn't. Troll just proves again he doesn't understand what has been presented it him. "Synthetic" life, (as seen in the Szostac videos), can arise spontaneouosly, given the nature of chemical enviromenets, which arise with no designer.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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25-03-2013, 02:08 AM
RE: Synthetic life.
(25-03-2013 02:02 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(25-03-2013 01:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Vosur you are confusing a claim that an intellect could have originated life on this planet with the claim that an intellect did originate life on this planet.

The theistic world view hinges on the possibility that an intellect can originate life. The atheistic word view hinges on the possibility life can originate via abiogenesis. Synthetic life demonstrates a necessary component of the theistic world view.

No it doesn't. Troll just proves again he doesn't understand what has been presented it him. "Synthetic" life, (as seen in the Szostac videos), can arise spontaneouosly, given the nature of chemical enviromenets, which arise with no designer.

Its been claimed it can arise but it has never been demonstrated. Bucky, Do all your beliefs rest on claims which haven't been demonstrated or just this one?
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25-03-2013, 02:11 AM
RE: Synthetic life.
(25-03-2013 02:08 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(25-03-2013 02:02 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  No it doesn't. Troll just proves again he doesn't understand what has been presented it him. "Synthetic" life, (as seen in the Szostac videos), can arise spontaneouosly, given the nature of chemical enviromenets, which arise with no designer.

Its been claimed it can arise but it has never been demonstrated. Bucky, Do all your beliefs rest on claims which haven't been demonstrated or just this one?

They're working on it troll. Please "demonstate" your god. Will be waiting, demonstrated trolling one. Drinking Beverage

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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25-03-2013, 02:13 AM
RE: Synthetic life.
(23-03-2013 01:51 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Synthetic life is life designed and constructed by an intellect from previously non living componets. Now there are two possible ways life originated on this planet(there's really 3 but I am ignoring panspermia for simplicity). One way it could have happened is via abiogenesis, or life arising naturally from previously non living components. The other way is life could have originated as a construction of some intellect. Neither of these "possibilities" have ever been demonstrated so we can't say even say for certain that they are really possible.

What happens if synthetic life is created by humans? Well such an event would demonstrate that it is possible life can originate as a construction of intellect. If synthetic life is demonstrated and abiogenesis isn't, doesn't that strengthen the theists position? Couldn't a theist claim in an argument that intelligent creation of life is a demonstrated fact, while abiogenesis remains just an assertion? Where would that put atheists like Bearded Dude who maintain you shouldn't believe in something until it is observed? He would be forced to concede that intelligent creation of life is believable while abiogenesis is only something worthy of research.


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It has been.




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25-03-2013, 02:13 AM
RE: Synthetic life.
(25-03-2013 02:11 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(25-03-2013 02:08 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Its been claimed it can arise but it has never been demonstrated. Bucky, Do all your beliefs rest on claims which haven't been demonstrated or just this one?

They're working on it troll. Please "demonstate" your god. Will be waiting, demonstrated trolling one. Drinking Beverage

I forgive you for calling me a troll.
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25-03-2013, 02:19 AM
RE: Synthetic life.
(25-03-2013 01:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Vosur you are confusing a claim that an intellect could have originated life on this planet with the claim that an intellect did originate life on this planet.
All right, point taken.

(25-03-2013 01:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The theistic world view hinges on the possibility that an intellect can originate life.
Yes.

(25-03-2013 01:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The atheistic word view hinges on the possibility life can originate via abiogenesis.
No, it doesn't, because abiogenesis is not the only viable option. Both panspermia and the creation of life on Earth by extraterrestrials are possibilities that are entirely compatible with atheism.

(25-03-2013 01:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Synthetic life demonstrates a necessary component of the theistic world view.
You would have a point if theists didn't believe that life on Earth was created by an omnipotent and supernatural entity.

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