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Syria-What should be done?
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05-09-2013, 08:35 PM
RE: Syria-What should be done?
(05-09-2013 08:18 PM)frankksj Wrote:  @chas, first, remember the last time the US claimed it had irrefutable evidence of the use of chemical against civilians... It was against the Kurds in Iraq, and the US claimed it had proof that Iran was behind it. Anybody who disputed that was dismissed as a conspiracy theorist. Low and behold, 20 years later, documents are revealed that proved that Reagan gave Iraq the chemical weapons and approved of him using then on the Kurds, and that the "proof" that Iran was behind it was all fabricated propaganda.

The US also made similar claims about 'yellow cake' and nuclear materials to justify the invasion of Iraq. And, that too was a total fabrication. The document proved to be forged, with evidence that the CIA did it.

Now, we've got a repeat. Again the US claims it has "proof".

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.... Fool me three times.... Well you've got be pretty gullible for that to happen.

And what about my question, "How would Americans respond if a foreign country bombed us to stop our civil war?" Or the findings from the 9/11 commission and CIA that almost all terrorist activity in the US is in retaliation for US interference in middle east countries internal affairs? Do we ever learn, or will history just keep repeating itself indefinitely?

What is your problem? I have made no claim about any evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-09-2013, 08:42 PM
RE: Syria-What should be done?
Quote:What is your problem? I have made no claim about any evidence.

An hour ago you wrote: "Or it could be about the use of chemical weapons against civilians." My point was that you're assuming that what the government is telling us about Assad using chemical weapons is accurate, when the fact is the last time the US made such a claim, the chemical weapons in question actually came from the US, the US approved their use, and all the claims that a foreign country was behind it were fabricated. I don't know who made or fired the chemical weapons in Syria. All I was saying is that I'm not going to accept the US propaganda until third parties confirm the evidence, particularly since it makes absolutely no sense for Assad to use chemical weapons like that, knowing that this was the 'red line' and the US would probably take out his military resources for doing it.
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05-09-2013, 08:43 PM
RE: Syria-What should be done?
(05-09-2013 08:42 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
Quote:What is your problem? I have made no claim about any evidence.

An hour ago you wrote: "Or it could be about the use of chemical weapons against civilians." My point was that you're assuming that what the government is telling us about Assad using chemical weapons is accurate, when the fact is the last time the US made such a claim, the chemical weapons in question actually came from the US, the US approved their use, and all the claims that a foreign country was behind it were fabricated. I don't know who made or fired the chemical weapons in Syria. All I was saying is that I'm not going to accept the US propaganda until third parties confirm the evidence, particularly since it makes absolutely no sense for Assad to use chemical weapons like that, knowing that this was the 'red line' and the US would probably take out his military resources for doing it.

That was my response to the question of why the U.S. would attack Syria.

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05-09-2013, 09:48 PM
RE: Syria-What should be done?
(05-09-2013 08:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-09-2013 08:42 PM)frankksj Wrote:  An hour ago you wrote: "Or it could be about the use of chemical weapons against civilians." My point was that you're assuming that what the government is telling us about Assad using chemical weapons is accurate, when the fact is the last time the US made such a claim, the chemical weapons in question actually came from the US, the US approved their use, and all the claims that a foreign country was behind it were fabricated. I don't know who made or fired the chemical weapons in Syria. All I was saying is that I'm not going to accept the US propaganda until third parties confirm the evidence, particularly since it makes absolutely no sense for Assad to use chemical weapons like that, knowing that this was the 'red line' and the US would probably take out his military resources for doing it.

That was my response to the question of why the U.S. would attack Syria.

Do you believe Assad used chemical weapons on his people?
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05-09-2013, 10:21 PM
RE: Syria-What should be done?
Quote:Do you believe Assad used chemical weapons on his people?

Personally I do not. He has nothing to gain by killing civilians who aren't involved in the conflict--all he's doing is reducing his base of taxpayers and hurting himself. Plus, he knows it will give the US an excuse to wipe out his military.

However, there are a lot of other people who stand to gain a lot by the chemical weapons. Certainly Assad's opposition has a lot to gain because they know that US is looking for an excuse to take Assad out, and this is that excuse.

Also, ever since Iran setup an exchange to sell oil in non-US dollars, the US has imposed strict sanctions and tried every deception imaginable to trick the American people into supporting yet another war. People who have been following this were able to pinpoint a long time ago exactly how this would play out with Syria. Because the US cannot muster support for an invasion in Iran, the next best thing is an invasion in Syria, because Iran has a mutual defense treaty with Syria and is required to attack the US if the US attacks Syria, thus giving the US the war with Iran. The people who write about this issue predicted a long time ago exactly how the situation would play out. And it's worked just like they said it would.
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05-09-2013, 10:56 PM
RE: Syria-What should be done?
(05-09-2013 10:21 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
Quote:Do you believe Assad used chemical weapons on his people?

Personally I do not. He has nothing to gain by killing civilians who aren't involved in the conflict--all he's doing is reducing his base of taxpayers and hurting himself. Plus, he knows it will give the US an excuse to wipe out his military.

However, there are a lot of other people who stand to gain a lot by the chemical weapons. Certainly Assad's opposition has a lot to gain because they know that US is looking for an excuse to take Assad out, and this is that excuse.

Also, ever since Iran setup an exchange to sell oil in non-US dollars, the US has imposed strict sanctions and tried every deception imaginable to trick the American people into supporting yet another war. People who have been following this were able to pinpoint a long time ago exactly how this would play out with Syria. Because the US cannot muster support for an invasion in Iran, the next best thing is an invasion in Syria, because Iran has a mutual defense treaty with Syria and is required to attack the US if the US attacks Syria, thus giving the US the war with Iran. The people who write about this issue predicted a long time ago exactly how the situation would play out. And it's worked just like they said it would.

I was asking chas. The US wants to knock out Syria before it gets the full shipment of the s-300 from Russia. Btw, guess who Russia is selling the S-300 to next? Iran. Iran and Russia have already signed contracts.
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05-09-2013, 11:01 PM
RE: Syria-What should be done?
(05-09-2013 10:56 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(05-09-2013 10:21 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Personally I do not. He has nothing to gain by killing civilians who aren't involved in the conflict--all he's doing is reducing his base of taxpayers and hurting himself. Plus, he knows it will give the US an excuse to wipe out his military.

However, there are a lot of other people who stand to gain a lot by the chemical weapons. Certainly Assad's opposition has a lot to gain because they know that US is looking for an excuse to take Assad out, and this is that excuse.

Also, ever since Iran setup an exchange to sell oil in non-US dollars, the US has imposed strict sanctions and tried every deception imaginable to trick the American people into supporting yet another war. People who have been following this were able to pinpoint a long time ago exactly how this would play out with Syria. Because the US cannot muster support for an invasion in Iran, the next best thing is an invasion in Syria, because Iran has a mutual defense treaty with Syria and is required to attack the US if the US attacks Syria, thus giving the US the war with Iran. The people who write about this issue predicted a long time ago exactly how the situation would play out. And it's worked just like they said it would.

I was asking chas. The US wants to knock out Syria before it gets the full shipment of the s-300 from Russia. Btw, guess who Russia is selling the S-300 to next? Iran. Iran and Russia have already signed contracts.

The s-300 is almost as good as the American system and it's better than the Israeli system.

A destabilized chaotic nation weakens the central government of Syria, that is what Israel and the US want. Israel certainly does not want a war full scale going on right next to them, they know they will be targeted from multiple directions from Hezbollah and the Syrian army and very possibly Egyptian army.
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06-09-2013, 05:18 AM
RE: Syria-What should be done?
(05-09-2013 09:48 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(05-09-2013 08:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  That was my response to the question of why the U.S. would attack Syria.

Do you believe Assad used chemical weapons on his people?

I have insufficient evidence to form a belief.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-09-2013, 04:31 PM
RE: Syria-What should be done?
(06-09-2013 05:18 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-09-2013 09:48 PM)I and I Wrote:  Do you believe Assad used chemical weapons on his people?

I have insufficient evidence to form a belief.

I agree. There just isn't enough evidence to know. In this type of case, all I can ask is "Cui Bono?"...or, "Who Benefits?"

Obviously, this attack didn't benefit Assad since it put him under a lot of pressure he didn't need. It certainly didn't benefit the people who were killed. However, it does benefit the Islamists who are into the martyrdom thing and don't give a damn who they kill, and who would just love it if the US attacked Assad. Als, it benefits the rebels for they also would like to see the United States attack Assad.

So, the Islamists and the Rebels benefit from the attack.

Now...of the two, which is more likely to attack innocents? Well, that would be the Islamists who have proven in the past that they will attack anyone and don't give a shit about human life.

Finally, who would be capable of carrying out this attack? A few weeks ago, i would have thought the Islamists were incapable of launching such an attack, but recently, I've seen some video of Islamists testing chenical agents. Yet...the validity of these videos can't be determined.

So...who knows?
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10-09-2013, 04:54 PM
RE: Syria-What should be done?
(10-09-2013 04:31 PM)Julius Wrote:  
(06-09-2013 05:18 AM)Chas Wrote:  I have insufficient evidence to form a belief.

I agree. There just isn't enough evidence to know. In this type of case, all I can ask is "Cui Bono?"...or, "Who Benefits?"

Obviously, this attack didn't benefit Assad since it put him under a lot of pressure he didn't need. It certainly didn't benefit the people who were killed. However, it does benefit the Islamists who are into the martyrdom thing and don't give a damn who they kill, and who would just love it if the US attacked Assad. Als, it benefits the rebels for they also would like to see the United States attack Assad.

So, the Islamists and the Rebels benefit from the attack.

Now...of the two, which is more likely to attack innocents? Well, that would be the Islamists who have proven in the past that they will attack anyone and don't give a shit about human life.

Finally, who would be capable of carrying out this attack? A few weeks ago, i would have thought the Islamists were incapable of launching such an attack, but recently, I've seen some video of Islamists testing chenical agents. Yet...the validity of these videos can't be determined.

So...who knows?

I am leaning towards the idea that Assad's forces used them it has been independently confirmed by a human rights organization.

(10-09-2013 10:15 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/09/10/syria...cal-attack

Quote: Available evidence strongly suggests that Syrian government forces were responsible for chemical weapons attacks on two Damascus suburbs on August 21, 2013. These attacks, which killed hundreds of civilians including many children, appeared to use a weapons-grade nerve agent, most likely Sarin.

I am still against any military action in Syria but luckily at this time there looks to be a deal in the works where the Syrians are going to turn over their chemical weapons to Russia.

From another thread on this.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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