Syrian refugees attack gay people in Germany.
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21-09-2015, 08:11 AM
RE: Syrian refugees attack gay people in Germany.
(21-09-2015 12:28 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(20-09-2015 06:25 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  No, he's trying to insinuate that I am, when I have clearly denounced them in this very thread.

You denounce it pro forma and in general but from your very post in this thread you are trying to excuse and downplay violent behavior of Muslims.

Remember? When GaC cited there was 20 attacks on gays, this is what you said:

Quote:How many anti-gay incidents happened before the influx? And have you posted about those?

Let me answer that. 20 less, that's how many , motherfucker.

Like any new crime is excused because similar crimes happened before? Should we turn the blind eye on this because there were attacks on gays before?

Is it safe to assume that majority of the attacks on gays is religion motivated? And from there you can take a wild guess on which religion members are the most likely to carry out the attacks on gays.
And , no bitch, I don't have any data on it, I am just asserting that.

How many less victims would there be if stupid cunts like you didn't manage to shame people and whole societies into inaction?

You are almost as guilty as the perpetrators of those crimes themselves. In some ways you are more guilty then any individual terrorist or rapist.

The problem with that very specific exemple of the 20 attacks on gays in Germany is that this country report around 3000 such incident each year (this also include non violent crime like harassment and stalking). The first organised perpetrator of attacks on gays remain neo-Nazi group and other extreme right-wing groups. These are made of white, native, German people. Are those crime committed by Muslim migrant? Yes they are. Are they motivated by religious belief? Yes they are. Are they very threatening? Yes they are. Should they be stopped? Yes they should and the sooner the better. Should we fear Muslim migrant because of that? Not more than we should fear the Germans because some of them happen to be neo-Nazis. In resume, Muslims in general aren't a threat they are at risk of becoming one and it's our job to make sure they don't become a threat.

Muslim migrants are a community at risk for high criminality, especially toward women and LGBTQ, due to poverty, lack of education, traumatic experience, political extremism and religious fundamentalism (pretty much like all community no matter the origin). Most Muslim are closet sexist and homophobe due to the culture in which they were born. They aren't actively dangerous, simply insulting or disrespectful and even then most will just think it very loudly, but say nothing to avoid trouble. Thus, though they are very bothering, it's relatively easy to reason with them and teach them acceptance of LGBTQ and women if you decide to make it your goal. Only a small amount are motivated enough and stupid enough to be militant about their sexism and homophobia and even then, they need the right circumstances to act. Note that the 20 victims were also marginalised due to a migrant status. They were especially vulnerable to such kind of violence.

Can we stop those attack by stopping Muslim migration in Germany? No you won't. Here is why. The first consequences will be to further marginalise the existing Muslim community in Germany (provided they are not expulsed, but that would generate even more problems). More marginalisation augment the risks of radicalisation and the influence of extreme political views and organised crime influence due to greater difficulty to integrate the wider society. Thus, it augment the potential for young men and women to turn to criminality, harder fundamentalism and even terrorism. Even if the community remains small because of lack of immigration, it becomes more dangerous. You want the opposite. You want to turn bigots into tolerant people, not bigots into dangerous criminals. The second possible consequences will be an increase of illegal migration which makes those community poorer, already criminalised, forced to rely on a underground social network and dependant of organised crime which all Islamic fundamentalist terrorist groups have ties with. Again, the risks for violent behavior are skyrocketing. We want the opposite. The third possible consequence would be the cut bridge syndrome. They stay in their country where they will assault their homosexuals and oppress their women and will refuse to deal with us outside of pure business deals. They won't want to hear about our culture and our ideas, because we rejected them and perceive it like an insult. If it sounds childish, it's because it is. Remember that the mental age of a crowd is that of a 6 year old. Nations are very big crowd they can be even dumber than that.

Since closing the frontiers is not an option, especially not for a European country, you are stuck with those Muslim migrants. You must deal with their criminality and bigotry both on the community level and at the personal level. The personal level is the easy one. Criminal should all be treated the same no matter their origin. What matters is the crime they committed. On that part, we got it covered. Pretty much all European government are confident they can deal with those criminal migrants even during the present crisis. On the community level, things are trickier. You can't treat them all like criminals because obviously most of them aren't, but most of them are living and displaying characteristics that put them at greater risks of becoming one than your standard privileged citizen of the middle class.

The important thing to remember is that all community behave like young children. If you don't like what they are doing and thinking, you have to find a way to change some of their thinking without making them flip out and think you are disrespecting them for their nature, which is the case if we want to be really honest. We hate the sexism and intolerance that their culture is proudly displaying and enforcing, but we need to remember that before being Muslim, they are people. People deserve a minimum of respect and we owe it to their victims, which are most of the time Muslim migrants themselves, to be patient, diligent and clever in our dealings. If your first objective is to reduce the risks of violence toward women and LGBTQ, you must make it sound like it's their own idea and their own success.

You need the community to actively participate in an effort that will see them adopt a very cherry picked version of Islam in which LGBTQ and women are equals. It can be done, many Muslim are already like that. To do so will require a certain amount of deception. I know it sounds terrible and it is, but real life isn't a fairy tale. It's made of compromise and difficult decisions. You will have to make it sound to your own community, just has childish has theirs, that they are good playmates and not much more dangerous than all the other ones to prevent a gang of scared people ruining all your efforts by antagonising them during the process. If people start acting up in your community, you need to divert some of your energy to keep them has quiet has possible by explaining them the plan and its difficulties. Once the Muslim migrants are minimally reassured, you can start to use a network of teachers, community police, social workers, politicians and pillars of the Muslim community already sympathetic to the cause you want to promote and start to do the teaching. In a few decades, if everything goes fine, you will have transformed those people and help build safer, more divers and productive communities. If things goes wrong, but not too much, it will take 3 to 4 generations (around 75 years). If things goes really wrong, congratulation you just created a structural community of highly criminalised second class citizens! In that worst case scenario, you will have the privilege of being in a lose-lose situation where everybody is guilty and the solution almost utopic. It now has the potential to degenerate in full blown civil unrest and might take centuries to solve itself. Social engineering and migrant integration is a very delicate process. A very small mistake can make a ripple effect that can endanger the entire process. The host community must be particularly patient, diligent and clever because it hold in its hand the chance of a brighter future for much more than just itself. Social changes are contagious. The positive ones need to spread.

All my text walls, including this ones, that I addressed directly to you could be resumed in the following sentence: «Shhhhhhht... don't say in public that Muslim migrants are a threat, we are trying to solve the problem and you aren't helping.». If you don’t feel like your country/community has a plan to integrate its Muslim migrants, you might want to start asking questions, because if Muslim migrant aren’t a direct threat, it’s imprudent to let such a risk to develop unchallenged.
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21-09-2015, 08:34 AM
RE: Syrian refugees attack gay people in Germany.
Immigrant arrested for murder of elderly couple in Sicily

Mamadou Kamara, an 18-year-old from the Ivory Coast, allegedly slit the throat of Vincenzo Solano, 68, and then attacked his Spanish-born wife, Mercedes Ibanez, 70.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/

Riots in Spain





Riots in Italy





Oxfordshire Child Sex Trafficking Ring Guilty

Nearly 400 girls may have been sexually exploited in Oxfordshire over a 16-year period, according to a report that has criticised authorities for failing to protect victims.
Seven members of a child sex trafficking ring have been convicted of a string of sex offences against six girls aged between 11 and 16.

Two sets of brothers - Akhtar Dogar, 32, and Anjum Dogar, 31, and Mohammed Karrar, 38, and Bassam Karrar, 33 - were convicted along with Kamar Jamil, 27, Assad Hussain, 32, and Zeeshan Ahmed, 27.

Another case in UK

UK: Six members of Muslim pedophile rape gang convicted of abusing a girl aged 12

Vikram Singh, Asif Hussain, Arshad Jani, Mohammed Imran, Akbari Khan and Taimoor Khan were jailed for between three years and 19-and-a-half years for their part in the horrifying abuse.

A total of 11 men went on trial for 51 offences between 2006 and 2012 including multiple rape of a child under 13, child prostitution and administering a substance to ‘stupefy’ a girl in order to engage in sexual activity.

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21-09-2015, 08:41 AM
RE: Syrian refugees attack gay people in Germany.
(18-09-2015 04:52 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(18-09-2015 03:30 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Man, I wish I could use the actions of thousands to judge the character of millions.
You can , or at least you should be able to reach some conclusions knowing that those millions never raise their voices or take any action against those thousands.

I'm not sure if this somehow escaped your notice, but in countries like Saudi Arabia there is no freedom of speech.

(18-09-2015 04:52 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Prove me wrong and give us the link showing for example that any terrorist have been arrested and tried in Islamic countries , or any terrorist extradited.

You've already proven that you know how to use google; you really shouldn't need me to do this for you.

(18-09-2015 04:52 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  You see, not all of the Germans were nazi's around the WWII either, but ....you know what happened or you need a link for that too?

You see, not all of the Jews were Communist conspirators around WWII either, but...

Seriously, dude. You could at least pretend to try to have an argument beyond bloodlust for collective punishment because those people, amirite?

(18-09-2015 04:52 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
Quote:Did I really excuse and tolerate such behaviour?

You do excuse it and tolerate it by downplaying it, by not acknowledging it for what it really is.

I didn't even do that. But don't just petulantly assert that; show me. Show me one instance of my denying or tolerating criminal acts.

(18-09-2015 04:52 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Reminds me of this

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Oh, good. More Godwinning.
(that's gotta work, right? winning is right there in the word!)

As soon as TEH EVOL MOSLUMS seize control of the state apparatus and start imprisoning undesirables, I'll worry about the above tritely misused aphorism.

Until then, I'll continue to assume that my law-abiding friends, neighbours, and co-workers are not, in fact, plotting the downfall of everything I know and love.

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21-09-2015, 08:54 AM
RE: Syrian refugees attack gay people in Germany.
(18-09-2015 09:32 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
(18-09-2015 03:30 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Thanks for being so polite!

I love you too, sweetheart.

Get fucked!

Such frothing, visceral hatred you manage to work up. I'm impressed!

(18-09-2015 09:32 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
Quote:Man, I wish I could use the actions of thousands to judge the character of millions.

You can.

wut

(18-09-2015 09:32 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  To suggest otherwise is to suggest that they are infantile morons with no understanding of the consequences of their actions.

So, wait, it's totally legit to judge person A for something person B did?

Shit. I've been doing this whole judgement thing entirely wrong.

(18-09-2015 09:32 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
Quote:The world would be so much simpler!

No it wouldnt.

... I don't think you understand what 'simpler' means. If the world is composed of a small number of monolithic hiveminds instead of 7 billion individuals with their own thoughts and opinions, I do rather contest that that would be simpler.

(18-09-2015 09:32 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
Quote:Do you go outside raving screed like that? I hope not. I'd hate to see you arrested. No one has a monopoly on being reactionary, champ. You amply and ironically demonstrate that right here.

A good friday night out isnt complete without getting arrested. And were exactly am I being "reactionary"??? Do you even know what that word means? Dont you think that rapping a woman into a black carpet and flogging her with a hardwood kane until the skin dies of a peels itself from the sore flesh, if she refuses to wear the carpet - is a thousand times more reactionary than calling that practice out as barbaric and reactionary?

I like the part where you immediately blame a billion people for something most of them don't actually do.

(18-09-2015 09:32 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
Quote:Did I really excuse and tolerate such behaviour? Shucks. I certainly can't find anything in my posts which did so. Please let me know where that happened, would you? I'd appreciate it!

The usual pathetic whimpering of "Oh those are just the bad ones",

Unless you can prove them all to be "bad ones", then yes, I'm afraid I am going to hold back and judge people only for their [i]own actions.

(18-09-2015 09:32 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  "Oh muslim women like to wear a carpet",

Which I never said. Straw man says what?

(18-09-2015 09:32 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  "Oh muslims just need help[/i] (are the the white mans burden now?)",

Didn't say that either. Straw man's buddy says what?

(18-09-2015 09:32 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  "muslims are just being held back",

Nope. That neither. Straw man's posse says what?

(18-09-2015 09:32 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  "muslims will reform soon",

Huh. I didn't even say that. Straw man's army says what?

(18-09-2015 09:32 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  "muslims arent that bad", that whimpering is just as bad as making excuses for the inherint savagry of the islamic cult of death.

Yes, because calling vast swathes of the population inherently savage is certainly not the kind of language that ever got anybody into trouble or led to less than ideal consequences.

Never, ever!

(18-09-2015 09:32 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
Quote:Of course, if there were no counter-culture, then there would be none of those very same non-muslims, gays, lesbians, free thinkers, atheists, artists, and democrats you claim are persecuted


What you mean all 5 out of 1 500 000 000? Or just 3 of them? Or one in particluar?

At best you will find reason and free thought amongst 1 out of 100 000 muslims.

Nice walkback. So now it's 1 in 100 000. You might notice how that's infinitely more than the 0 you previously asserted.
(the actual truth is that in societies without freedom of expression we simply can't know how many people believe any given thing)

1 in 100 000 is about how many Canadian muslims have gone to join ISIS, by the way.

(18-09-2015 09:32 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
Quote:- you can't have it both ways.


I aint.

You explicitly are. I invite you to reconsider.

(18-09-2015 09:32 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
Quote:Perhaps leave a bit of space between those statements next time? It's pretty obviously bullshit when they're explicitly contradictory and literally back to back.

Are you done building that shit stained ivory tower of yours on the swampy ground of a contradiction that didnt even happen? It collapsed 3 statements ago.

"Collapsed"? My dangerous, radical idea to not gleefully stereotype?

Yep. You got me. What crazy talk that lark was.

Wait, are you counting the strawman statements I didn't say in that count? Hmm...

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21-09-2015, 08:56 AM (This post was last modified: 21-09-2015 09:06 AM by cjlr.)
RE: Syrian refugees attack gay people in Germany.
Sorry. I just get a little snarky when people insult me for things I didn't say and think vicious blanket condemnation of entire demographics is a good idea.

Slowminded, you can post as many links as you want. I'd only really like you to consider two points.
Non-muslims also do plenty of awful shit.
Plent of muslims do not do awful shit.

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21-09-2015, 08:58 AM
RE: Syrian refugees attack gay people in Germany.
(21-09-2015 08:11 AM)epronovost Wrote:  All my text walls, including this ones, that I addressed directly to you could be resumed in the following sentence: «Shhhhhhht... don't say in public that Muslim migrants are a threat, we are trying to solve the problem and you aren't helping.». If you don’t feel like your country/community has a plan to integrate its Muslim migrants, you might want to start asking questions, because if Muslim migrant aren’t a direct threat, it’s imprudent to let such a risk to develop unchallenged.

I understand what you are saying , I just disagree that problems can be solved in a way that you propose.
It is counterproductive to keep it quiet and under wraps. I think that it is a must that they understand that their shit is not gonna be tolerated in any way shape or form at any level, personal, group or political. And this must be made clear to each and every one of them from the first moment they step on our ground.

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21-09-2015, 09:28 AM
RE: Syrian refugees attack gay people in Germany.
(21-09-2015 08:58 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(21-09-2015 08:11 AM)epronovost Wrote:  All my text walls, including this ones, that I addressed directly to you could be resumed in the following sentence: «Shhhhhhht... don't say in public that Muslim migrants are a threat, we are trying to solve the problem and you aren't helping.». If you don’t feel like your country/community has a plan to integrate its Muslim migrants, you might want to start asking questions, because if Muslim migrant aren’t a direct threat, it’s imprudent to let such a risk to develop unchallenged.

I understand what you are saying , I just disagree that problems can be solved in a way that you propose.
It is counterproductive to keep it quiet and under wraps. I think that it is a must that they understand that their shit is not gonna be tolerated in any way shape or form at any level, personal, group or political. And this must be made clear to each and every one of them from the first moment they step on our ground.

My method might seem risky, but it has produced good results in the past. That's how we dealt with the Chinese migrants of the beginning of the 20th century. We made lots of mistakes, we created the yellow peril and responded to violence with even more violence. It took around 60 years to integrate them in a satisfactory fashion. It could have been 20 years less.

Attacking up front the problem in a clear and radical way like you are suggesting, will have the same effect than roughly scolding a child. He is going to throw you a tantrum before obeying. When a six years old throws a tantrum, he screams and cries and its over after a few minutes and the application of a bit more discipline. There is no real damage, no real danger. When a community makes a tantrum, it riots, it turns to criminality, it forms opposition groups, it radicalise itself. The tantrum can last for years and more discipline can just make it worst. Innocent people, mostly from the scolded community, will be caught in the fire and will pay the price. Telling a sexist, but non-violent man: «Don't you dare lay a hand on your wife and daughters or mine or you will taste my prison system and it ain't made to be pretty!», will result in him replying with the following: «What the fuck do you think I am? I'm no monster! Tell your little slut to dress properly and maybe she will have less problems! And don't take me for an idiot it's not like none of you ever raped a girl! Your just telling me that because I'm different!». The intention is good, the results are almost null. Grandstanding only works when you are completely clean and when it comes to homophobia, sexism, prostitution, murder, hate crimes, nobody is completely clean.

That's why I think that, even if my plan might not seem that good, it still the best we have and we need one now. We have large community of Muslim at higher risk for criminality in our country, more migrants are coming in from their war thorn home to ours while you read those lines. We can't freeze time, open our big book of history; consult our top historians, criminologists, sociologists, field personnel and politician on how to deal with it. We need to act now and quickly for we have a small window of opportunity to ease Muslim migrant integration and build a better world.
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21-09-2015, 10:52 AM (This post was last modified: 21-09-2015 10:59 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Syrian refugees attack gay people in Germany.
(21-09-2015 12:28 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(20-09-2015 06:25 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  No, he's trying to insinuate that I am, when I have clearly denounced them in this very thread.

You denounce it pro forma and in general but from your very post in this thread you are trying to excuse and downplay violent behavior of Muslims.

Remember? When GaC cited there was 20 attacks on gays, this is what you said:

Quote:How many anti-gay incidents happened before the influx? And have you posted about those?

That's right. Because I'm suspicious of people who focus on one demographic to the exclusion of others.

Got a problem with that? Tough shit.

(21-09-2015 12:28 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Let me answer that. 20 less, that's how many , motherfucker.

And why is that? Is it because there were twenty less committed by others, and he commented on every one of those too?

Or is it because he focuses on his own pet biases?

See, Slow, this is what happens when you actually think. Hopefully you'll try it a time or two ... but I'm not holding my breath.

(21-09-2015 12:28 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Like any new crime is excused because similar crimes happened before? Should we turn the blind eye on this because there were attacks on gays before?

Where did excuse anything? You're reading what you want to read. My question wasn't excusing Muslims -- my question was aimed at GaC's biases.

(21-09-2015 12:28 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Is it safe to assume that majority of the attacks on gays is religion motivated? And from there you can take a wild guess on which religion members are the most likely to carry out the attacks on gays.

Here in America, that religion is without a doubt Christianity. It may well be that that is the case in your nation, too, being as how it is about 85% Orthodox.

(21-09-2015 12:28 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  And , no bitch, I don't have any data on it, I am just asserting that.

Hitchens's Razor.

(21-09-2015 12:28 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  How many less victims would there be if stupid cunts like you didn't manage to shame people and whole societies into inaction?

Yes, because standing against bigotry increases bigotry against gays. I'm not shaming whole societies. What I'm doing is pointing out that some folks are driven not by the desire to defend their own society, but by the desire to promulgate their own hatreds. I include you in that group, by the way. You're so blinded by your hate that you cannot even read clearly.

(21-09-2015 12:28 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  You are almost as guilty as the perpetrators of those crimes themselves. In some ways you are more guilty then any individual terrorist or rapist.

You're being histrionic. I'm asking questions about a forum member's biases, and that makes me worse than a murderer? Worse than a rapist?

I'll tell you what, you've got probably the most apt screen-name I've ever seen on the forum. If brains were dynamite, you wouldn't have enough to blow your nose.
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21-09-2015, 10:54 AM
RE: Syrian refugees attack gay people in Germany.
(21-09-2015 12:46 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  LOOK> I was quoting Thumpafuckers post .

lol, "Thumpafucker". I didn't realize I was having a discussion with an eleven-year-old. No wonder you're so irrational ... you've yet to finish grade-school.
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21-09-2015, 11:13 AM
RE: Syrian refugees attack gay people in Germany.
(21-09-2015 09:28 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(21-09-2015 08:58 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  I understand what you are saying , I just disagree that problems can be solved in a way that you propose.
It is counterproductive to keep it quiet and under wraps. I think that it is a must that they understand that their shit is not gonna be tolerated in any way shape or form at any level, personal, group or political. And this must be made clear to each and every one of them from the first moment they step on our ground.

My method might seem risky, but it has produced good results in the past. That's how we dealt with the Chinese migrants of the beginning of the 20th century. We made lots of mistakes, we created the yellow peril and responded to violence with even more violence. It took around 60 years to integrate them in a satisfactory fashion. It could have been 20 years less.

Attacking up front the problem in a clear and radical way like you are suggesting, will have the same effect than roughly scolding a child. He is going to throw you a tantrum before obeying. When a six years old throws a tantrum, he screams and cries and its over after a few minutes and the application of a bit more discipline. There is no real damage, no real danger. When a community makes a tantrum, it riots, it turns to criminality, it forms opposition groups, it radicalise itself. The tantrum can last for years and more discipline can just make it worst. Innocent people, mostly from the scolded community, will be caught in the fire and will pay the price. Telling a sexist, but non-violent man: «Don't you dare lay a hand on your wife and daughters or mine or you will taste my prison system and it ain't made to be pretty!», will result in him replying with the following: «What the fuck do you think I am? I'm no monster! Tell your little slut to dress properly and maybe she will have less problems! And don't take me for an idiot it's not like none of you ever raped a girl! Your just telling me that because I'm different!». The intention is good, the results are almost null. Grandstanding only works when you are completely clean and when it comes to homophobia, sexism, prostitution, murder, hate crimes, nobody is completely clean.

That's why I think that, even if my plan might not seem that good, it still the best we have and we need one now. We have large community of Muslim at higher risk for criminality in our country, more migrants are coming in from their war thorn home to ours while you read those lines. We can't freeze time, open our big book of history; consult our top historians, criminologists, sociologists, field personnel and politician on how to deal with it. We need to act now and quickly for we have a small window of opportunity to ease Muslim migrant integration and build a better world.

Ok, you might be right, but then again , not confronting them about their ways can result in them thinking they are doing it right, no?
Process of teaching them by example will surely take considerable time and even then it might not be effective.
And also, our system is far from perfect, it is very easy for any radical Islam leader or any individual even to point out and concentrate on the flaws in our system and use that to solidify the belief within the community that their way is correct way.

It doesn't have to be "Don't you dare...."
It can be both polite and stern.

When I was getting my visa for Canada I had to prove that I don't have a criminal record and fill out several questionnaires and answer many verbal questions, some of the concerning my view of western societies and Nato bombing and such. They even had a little trick to see if they can catch me lying ( it's interesting , I can tell you about it if you want ) .
Point is , I didn't make a tantrum about it, if anything I thought it was a responsible thing to do.

Of course I understand that a lot of people will act differently , just saying it's not necessary true that they will, provided that the rules are presented in a civil and respectful manner.

And it can possibly be used as a screening process, the ones who show extremely negative response should be turned down and deported back to where they came from . Refugee or not refugee.


But, in the end , nor me or you have any say in how this is going to be resolved and sorted out. We can just wait and see what happens.

As far as this thread is concerned , I can admit to being negative and biased against Islam and Muslims in general. If that makes me a bigot, so be it. Time will tell if I am right or wrong. I sincerely hope that I am wrong.

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