Tables are aware now
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11-11-2015, 11:44 AM
RE: Tables are aware now
(11-11-2015 05:50 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(11-11-2015 05:38 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, I'm just surprised that some folks here want to draw a distinction between mental states and brain starts.

It's curious how some folks here view their own minds, in ways that don't seem to follow a purely deterministic or physicalist picture.

Mate I am not a doctor and do not pretend to be. Nor do I ask questions concerning expertise of non experts. However wrong I may be this is how simple this all seems.

This is a rose.


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There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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11-11-2015, 11:45 AM
RE: Tables are aware now
(11-11-2015 10:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-11-2015 09:54 AM)cjlr Wrote:  The idiotic d-grade psychoanalysis spouted off by Tomasia, on the other hand, constitutes no such thing.

That's very true, my psychoanalysis of folks I encounter on the internet is quite terrible, but it's a side hobby, which I tend to reserve primarily for my internet BFFs like TbD.

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There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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11-11-2015, 11:45 AM
RE: Tables are aware now
.........

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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11-11-2015, 12:00 PM
RE: Tables are aware now
(11-11-2015 09:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-11-2015 09:30 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "To quote Banjo:"

And you still don't understand the difference between what a mind is and what a brain is and that they are different.

Someone pulls out a picture of the brain, somebody pulls out a picture of the mind. Looks the same to me.

Brains and minds are not the same thing.
Are you over-simplifying some concept that might actually make sense?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-11-2015, 12:24 PM (This post was last modified: 11-11-2015 12:28 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Tables are aware now
(11-11-2015 12:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  Brains and minds are not the same thing.
Are you over-simplifying some concept that might actually make sense?

Are they physically different?

Would you say that brains and minds have distinct functions, distinct processes, in which we could draw a line between mental states and brain states? I don't think so, but it appears you do?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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11-11-2015, 12:34 PM (This post was last modified: 11-11-2015 12:55 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Tables are aware now
(11-11-2015 12:24 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Are they physically different?

Would you say that brains and minds have distinct functions, distinct processes, in which we could draw a line between mental states and brain states? I don't think so, but it appears you do?

I think this is like asking is respiration distinct from lungs. Why yes, yes it is. But there is a correspondence between respiration and lung states. Mental states correspond to particular brain states in the same way. And everyone's mapping function is individual.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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11-11-2015, 12:56 PM (This post was last modified: 11-11-2015 01:34 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Tables are aware now
(11-11-2015 12:34 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I think this is like asking is respiration distinct from lungs. Why yes, yes it is. But there is a correspondence between respiration and lungs. Mental states correspond to particular brain states in the same way. And everyone's mapping function is individual.

I don't know if I find the analogy here to be a perfect fit. It's not entirely clear to me what distinction is being drawn here by folks, such as myself, that don't subscribe to some form of dualism when it comes to the mind.

Are there processes we'd label as mental processes, and other processes we'd label as brain processes? And if so would processes that involve consciousness and introspection clearly fall into the mental process category, and processes that involve unconscious deliberations fall into the brain process category.

Do all animals have mental states and brain states? Or just a handful of them?

"Dr. William B. Salt, MD, Gastroenterology:

Brain and mind are not the same. Your brain is part of the visible, tangible world of the body. Your mind is part of the invisible, transcendent world of thought, feeling, attitude, belief and imagination. The brain is the physical organ most associated with mind and consciousness, but the mind is not confined to the brain. The intelligence of your mind permeates every cell of your body, not just brain cells. Your mind has tremendous power over all bodily systems."

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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11-11-2015, 01:02 PM
RE: Tables are aware now
I am still contemplating the concept that my table is aware. Consider

Would figuring it out require acid or something similar?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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11-11-2015, 01:31 PM
RE: Tables are aware now
(11-11-2015 01:02 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I am still contemplating the concept that my table is aware. Consider

Would figuring it out require acid or something similar?

It probably goes something like this:

"So vexing has the problem of consciousness proved that some of these thinkers have been driven to a hypothesis that sounds desperate, if not downright crazy. Perhaps, they say, mind is not limited to the brains of some animals. Perhaps it is ubiquitous, present in every bit of matter, all the way up to galaxies, all the way down to electrons and neutrinos, not excluding medium-size things like a glass of water or a potted plant. Moreover, it did not suddenly arise when some physical particles on a certain planet chanced to come into the right configuration; rather, there has been consciousness in the cosmos from the very beginning of time.

The doctrine that the stuff of the world is fundamentally mind-stuff goes by the name of panpsychism. A few decades ago, the American philosopher Thomas Nagel showed that it is an inescapable consequence of some quite reasonable premises. First, our brains consist of material particles. Second, these particles, in certain arrangements, produce subjective thoughts and feelings. Third, physical properties alone cannot account for subjectivity. (How could the ineffable experience of tasting a strawberry ever arise from the equations of physics?) Now, Nagel reasoned, the properties of a complex system like the brain don’t just pop into existence from nowhere; they must derive from the properties of that system’s ultimate constituents. Those ultimate constituents must therefore have subjective features themselves — features that, in the right combinations, add up to our inner thoughts and feelings. But the electrons, protons and neutrons making up our brains are no different from those making up the rest of the world. So the entire universe must consist of little bits of consciousness."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/magazi....html?_r=0

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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11-11-2015, 03:31 PM
RE: Tables are aware now
(11-11-2015 12:56 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-11-2015 12:34 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I think this is like asking is respiration distinct from lungs. Why yes, yes it is. But there is a correspondence between respiration and lungs. Mental states correspond to particular brain states in the same way. And everyone's mapping function is individual.

I don't know if I find the analogy here to be a perfect fit. It's not entirely clear to me what distinction is being drawn here by folks, such as myself, that don't subscribe to some form of dualism when it comes to the mind.

Are there processes we'd label as mental processes, and other processes we'd label as brain processes? And if so would processes that involve consciousness and introspection clearly fall into the mental process category, and processes that involve unconscious deliberations fall into the brain process category.

Do all animals have mental states and brain states? Or just a handful of them?

"Dr. William B. Salt, MD, Gastroenterology:

Brain and mind are not the same. Your brain is part of the visible, tangible world of the body. Your mind is part of the invisible, transcendent world of thought, feeling, attitude, belief and imagination. The brain is the physical organ most associated with mind and consciousness, but the mind is not confined to the brain. The intelligence of your mind permeates every cell of your body, not just brain cells. Your mind has tremendous power over all bodily systems."

"I don't know if I find the analogy here to be a perfect fit. It's not entirely clear to me what distinction is being drawn here by folks, such as myself, that don't subscribe to some form of dualism when it comes to the mind. "

Folks like yourself that are wrong in equating the mind to the brain.

"So vexing has the problem of consciousness proved that some of these thinkers have been driven to a hypothesis that sounds desperate, if not downright crazy. Perhaps, they say, mind is not limited to the brains of some animals. Perhaps it is ubiquitous, present in every bit of matter, all the way up to galaxies, all the way down to electrons and neutrinos, not excluding medium-size things like a glass of water or a potted plant. Moreover, it did not suddenly arise when some physical particles on a certain planet chanced to come into the right configuration; rather, there has been consciousness in the cosmos from the very beginning of time.

The doctrine that the stuff of the world is fundamentally mind-stuff goes by the name of panpsychism. A few decades ago, the American philosopher Thomas Nagel showed that it is an inescapable consequence of some quite reasonable premises. First, our brains consist of material particles. Second, these particles, in certain arrangements, produce subjective thoughts and feelings. Third, physical properties alone cannot account for subjectivity. (How could the ineffable experience of tasting a strawberry ever arise from the equations of physics?) Now, Nagel reasoned, the properties of a complex system like the brain don’t just pop into existence from nowhere; they must derive from the properties of that system’s ultimate constituents. Those ultimate constituents must therefore have subjective features themselves — features that, in the right combinations, add up to our inner thoughts and feelings. But the electrons, protons and neutrons making up our brains are no different from those making up the rest of the world. So the entire universe must consist of little bits of consciousness."


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