Tables are aware now
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12-11-2015, 12:12 PM
RE: Tables are aware now
(12-11-2015 10:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is no software without some hardware. No brain - no mind.

But there's "software" without brains. Early you defined the "software" as a metaphor for what you mean by a "mind".

It seems that you might agree, that animals without brains, don't have minds, even though they have software. There are possibly animals with brains, but without minds, even though they have "software" as well.

The human brain has software some which corresponds to the mind, and some of which doesn't? Would this be accurate in your view?

I'm deconstructing your metaphor here.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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12-11-2015, 12:22 PM
RE: Tables are aware now
I'm not even aware of myself. How can something inanimate be aware?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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12-11-2015, 01:52 PM
RE: Tables are aware now
(12-11-2015 12:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 10:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is no software without some hardware. No brain - no mind.

But there's "software" without brains. Early you defined the "software" as a metaphor for what you mean by a "mind".

You seem not to understand the metaphor. Software doesn't do anything without a processor.

Quote:It seems that you might agree, that animals without brains, don't have minds, even though they have software. There are possibly animals with brains, but without minds, even though they have "software" as well.

They don't have software. That requires a brain. A mind is software of a particular complexity, to continue to stretch an already simplified metaphor.

Quote:The human brain has software some which corresponds to the mind, and some of which doesn't? Would this be accurate in your view?

No. That is not consistent with my metaphor. What you might mean is that there is firmware - learned behavior/response that is not part of the software, not part of mind.

Quote:I'm deconstructing your metaphor here.

Don't put a lot of effort into that, the metaphor is simplistic and only meant to differentiate between brain (hardware) and mind (software).

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12-11-2015, 01:53 PM
RE: Tables are aware now
(12-11-2015 12:22 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  I'm not even aware of myself. How can something inanimate be aware?

It can't. Drinking Beverage

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13-11-2015, 07:12 AM
RE: Tables are aware now
(12-11-2015 12:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 10:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is no software without some hardware. No brain - no mind.

But there's "software" without brains. Early you defined the "software" as a metaphor for what you mean by a "mind".

It seems that you might agree, that animals without brains, don't have minds, even though they have software. There are possibly animals with brains, but without minds, even though they have "software" as well.

The human brain has software some which corresponds to the mind, and some of which doesn't? Would this be accurate in your view?

I'm deconstructing your metaphor here.

"But there's "software" without brains. Early you defined the "software" as a metaphor for what you mean by a "mind". "

Provide evidence to demonstrate that a mind can exist without a brain

"It seems that you might agree, that animals without brains, don't have minds, even though they have software. There are possibly animals with brains, but without minds, even though they have "software" as well."

Reaction to stimulus is not equivalent to the "software" in the mind/brain analogy.

"I'm deconstructing your metaphor here."

You haven't deconstructed anything. You have demonstrated a lack of interest in trying to understand reality.

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13-11-2015, 08:14 AM
RE: Tables are aware now
(12-11-2015 01:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  No. That is not consistent with my metaphor. What you might mean is that there is firmware - learned behavior/response that is not part of the software, not part of mind.

Okay, we’ll use the term “firmware”, even though it can be argued that firmware is just a particular form of software, but that’s fine.

But when it comes to firmware, we can say even cells have firmware, animals withouts brains have firmware, plants have firmware, etc…. Firmware is not dependent on a mind or a brain the way software is. Would you agree?

And it seems to me that the human brain has both firmware and software, and the aspects we refer to metaphorically as the software are what we refer to as the mind.

Would you say the mind has both firmware and software? Or when we speak of emergent properties are we exclusively speaking about software?

Earlier you suggested that having a working brain doesn’t in and of itself indicate that a mind exists, particularly in regards to non-human animals. In such cases, would we say these brains have firmware but not software?

Assuming our brains have both firmware and software, can the firmware like software be modified, or upgraded through environmental factors?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-11-2015, 08:25 AM
RE: Tables are aware now
Why would you add more metaphors to an already clouded not good one to one scenario that is misused to begin with...

All I saw from that random link positing anything of a claim was that, well electrons/protons/neutrons are in your brain, and your brain somehow, in a no further examined manner to this thought experiment, creates the "mind/consciousness/whatever" then it must mean there could be something out there in this manner caused from electrons/protons/neutrons as they're across everything.

Sure if you want to ignore any concept of how actual combinations of different molecules adds up to generate different types of functioning matter and material. I would think you would want to focus the journey here on what the layers of sensory input are formulated off of first.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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13-11-2015, 08:28 AM
RE: Tables are aware now
Why are you trying to over complicate this? The metaphor was supposed to make it easier, but now it's just confusing.

Certain animals can have certain behaviorist without a "mind" and certain organisms can function without a centralized control station or brain. This does not mean that the mind is not dependent on the brain or on some physical medium, simply that these organisms have something else.

And still no demonstration of a "mind" without some sort of physical matrix to create or house it.
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13-11-2015, 09:08 AM
RE: Tables are aware now
(13-11-2015 08:25 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Why would you add more metaphors to an already clouded not good one to one scenario that is misused to begin with...

Well for one it doesn't appear that Chas's, considers the mind a "metaphor", and sees a real distinction between the brain and the mind. Though he's not a dualist.

It's not very clear to me where Chas wants to draw the line between the brain and the mind, and it seems the firmware/software metaphor can be adequate way to help draw these distinctions out.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-11-2015, 09:17 AM
RE: Tables are aware now
That's dishonest. Chad isn't a dualist. You're trying to over complicate a simple metaphor so you can twist his views to fit your own.

Is there a distinction between the brain and "mind?" Depends. Software is dependent upon hardware but hardware can exist without software. Or I could say that the mind is like the images created in a video game via 1's and 0's. The images and actions cannot exist without that code, but the code does not necessarily produce images.
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