Tables are aware now
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13-11-2015, 09:37 AM
RE: Tables are aware now
(13-11-2015 09:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-11-2015 08:25 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Why would you add more metaphors to an already clouded not good one to one scenario that is misused to begin with...

Well for one it doesn't appear that Chas's, considers the mind a "metaphor", and sees a real distinction between the brain and the mind. Though he's not a dualist.

It's not very clear to me where Chas wants to draw the line between the brain and the mind, and it seems the firmware/software metaphor can be adequate way to help draw these distinctions out.
He called it am analogy and said about it, my metaphor, in a different post. I don't think it's hard to see that.

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13-11-2015, 09:49 AM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2015 10:19 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Tables are aware now
(13-11-2015 09:17 AM)natachan Wrote:  That's dishonest. Chad isn't a dualist. You're trying to over complicate a simple metaphor so you can twist his views to fit your own.

Uhm, I stated "Though he's not a dualist.".

He seems to subscribe to some from of emergence, not dualism, and that's primarily what my questions were about.. Me and him don't seem to share the same views. I don't think there is any real distinction between software and firmware, between brain states and mental states.

He seems to believe there is, and I would like to get an idea of what the distinction he's trying to make is. We've progressed to the point where it's seem to be a difference primarily between the metaphors of firmware and software.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-11-2015, 10:00 AM
RE: Tables are aware now
(13-11-2015 09:37 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  He called it am analogy and said about it, my metaphor, in a different post. I don't think it's hard to see that.

You mean he called software a metaphor, and analogy, not the mind itself. But Chas can clarify whatever he chooses to clarify.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-11-2015, 11:02 AM
RE: Tables are aware now
(13-11-2015 08:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 01:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  No. That is not consistent with my metaphor. What you might mean is that there is firmware - learned behavior/response that is not part of the software, not part of mind.

Okay, we’ll use the term “firmware”, even though it can be argued that firmware is just a particular form of software, but that’s fine.

It is not software in this analogy.

Quote:But when it comes to firmware, we can say even cells have firmware, animals withouts brains have firmware, plants have firmware, etc…. Firmware is not dependent on a mind or a brain the way software is. Would you agree?

No, I wouldn't. Firmware is programmable and therefore needs to be plastic.

Quote:And it seems to me that the human brain has both firmware and software, and the aspects we refer to metaphorically as the software are what we refer to as the mind.

Yes, that is the metaphor.

Quote:Would you say the mind has both firmware and software?

No.

Quote:Or when we speak of emergent properties are we exclusively speaking about software?

We are speaking about software that is executing on the hardware - including firmware. Software is dependent on the hardware/firmware, it doesn't stand alone.

Quote:Earlier you suggested that having a working brain doesn’t in and of itself indicate that a mind exists, particularly in regards to non-human animals. In such cases, would we say these brains have firmware but not software?

They might. If the animal can learn, that indicates plasticity,

Quote:Assuming our brains have both firmware and software, can the firmware like software be modified, or upgraded through environmental factors?

Yes, through training. When a batter hits a baseball, there is little or no conscious thought - a 90mph fastball crosses the plate in 0.45 sec. The batter has less than a third of a second to start swinging the bat. There is no time for conscious thought.

I shoot trap. The way to get a good score is to not consciously think about hitting the clay, but to practice enough to react pre-consciously.

Practice reprograms firmware, but it operates in a pre-conscious manner.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-11-2015, 11:07 AM
RE: Tables are aware now
(13-11-2015 09:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-11-2015 09:17 AM)natachan Wrote:  That's dishonest. Chad isn't a dualist. You're trying to over complicate a simple metaphor so you can twist his views to fit your own.

Uhm, I stated "Though he's not a dualist.".

He seems to subscribe to some from of emergence, not dualism, and that's primarily what my questions were about.. Me and him don't seem to share the same views. I don't think there is any real distinction between software and firmware, between brain states and mental states.

He seems to believe there is, and I would like to get an idea of what the distinction he's trying to make is. We've progressed to the point where it's seem to be a difference primarily between the metaphors of firmware and software.

The primary distinction is that a state is a snapshot in time, but consciousness is a process requiring time.

Music isn't the state of the orchestra and instruments, it is the pattern of states and their effects on the hearers.

If mind equals brain, why don't all creatures that have brains have minds?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-11-2015, 11:10 AM
RE: Tables are aware now
(13-11-2015 10:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-11-2015 09:37 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  He called it am analogy and said about it, my metaphor, in a different post. I don't think it's hard to see that.

You mean he called software a metaphor, and analogy, not the mind itself. But Chas can clarify whatever he chooses to clarify.

If you go back and read the post, you will see that the metaphor is that the brain is hardware and the mind is software running on that brain.

It is an analogy, and it is an over-simple one, as I said. However, it should clarify the concept that brain and mind are not one and the same.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-11-2015, 11:16 AM
Tables are aware now
Now we're going to have a ridiculous analogy where our eyes are GPUs, dementia is faulty RAM, the monitor is a dream, babies are Arduino...

Can we stop over thinking this now?
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13-11-2015, 11:29 AM
RE: Tables are aware now
(13-11-2015 11:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, through training. When a batter hits a baseball, there is little or no conscious thought - a 90mph fastball crosses the plate in 0.45 sec. The batter has less than a third of a second to start swinging the bat. There is no time for conscious thought.

I shoot trap. The way to get a good score is to not consciously think about hitting the clay, but to practice enough to react pre-consciously.

Practice reprograms firmware, but it operates in a pre-conscious manner.

So in way the line between firmware and software, the brain and the mind is in regards to consciousness. The batter hits the ball there is little to no conscious thought, so we can ascribe that to the firmware of the brain.

Patients who suffering from a condition called blindsight, can recognize shapes and colors without a conscious visual experience of them. If you asked a patient to chose the yellow object among a set of colored objects, he succeeds in doing so. But the patient would would report that he didn’t see anything, that he was just guessing.

Would we say in such cases, it was the firmware of the brain that recognized the correct object, but not the mind, since he lacked a visual conscious experience? Sort of the way we might say a frog identifies a fly, without being conscious himself? That in such an instance we’re not talking about the mind, since consciousness is not really involved, but just purely the firmware of the brain?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-11-2015, 11:40 AM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2015 12:01 PM by Chas.)
RE: Tables are aware now
(13-11-2015 11:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-11-2015 11:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, through training. When a batter hits a baseball, there is little or no conscious thought - a 90mph fastball crosses the plate in 0.45 sec. The batter has less than a third of a second to start swinging the bat. There is no time for conscious thought.

I shoot trap. The way to get a good score is to not consciously think about hitting the clay, but to practice enough to react pre-consciously.

Practice reprograms firmware, but it operates in a pre-conscious manner.

So in way the line between firmware and software, the brain and the mind is in regards to consciousness. The batter hits the ball there is little to no conscious thought, so we can ascribe that to the firmware of the brain.

Patients who suffering from a condition called blindsight, can recognize shapes and colors without a conscious visual experience of them. If you asked a patient to chose the yellow object among a set of colored objects, he succeeds in doing so. But the patient would would report that he didn’t see anything, that he was just guessing.

It's not like that at all.

Quote:Would we say in such cases, it was the firmware of the brain that recognized the correct object, but not the mind, since he lacked a visual conscious experience?

Whether normal vision or blindsight, the chain of events is the same except at the very end where the signals either get to the cortex or not.

Quote:Sort of the way we might say a frog identifies a fly, without being conscious himself? That in such an instance we’re not talking about the mind, since consciousness is not really involved, but just purely the firmware of the brain?

We don't know what a frog experiences or whether it has any sort of consciousness.

Frogs bred in captivity, who've never experienced a fly, react to food pellets that cross their field of vision just as wild frogs react to flies. I'd call that hardware.

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13-11-2015, 11:45 AM
RE: Tables are aware now
(13-11-2015 11:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-11-2015 11:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, through training. When a batter hits a baseball, there is little or no conscious thought - a 90mph fastball crosses the plate in 0.45 sec. The batter has less than a third of a second to start swinging the bat. There is no time for conscious thought.

I shoot trap. The way to get a good score is to not consciously think about hitting the clay, but to practice enough to react pre-consciously.

Practice reprograms firmware, but it operates in a pre-conscious manner.

So in way the line between firmware and software, the brain and the mind is in regards to consciousness. The batter hits the ball there is little to no conscious thought, so we can ascribe that to the firmware of the brain.

Patients who suffering from a condition called blindsight, can recognize shapes and colors without a conscious visual experience of them. If you asked a patient to chose the yellow object among a set of colored objects, he succeeds in doing so. But the patient would would report that he didn’t see anything, that he was just guessing.

Would we say in such cases, it was the firmware of the brain that recognized the correct object, but not the mind, since he lacked a visual conscious experience? Sort of the way we might say a frog identifies a fly, without being conscious himself? That in such an instance we’re not talking about the mind, since consciousness is not really involved, but just purely the firmware of the brain?

"So in way the line between firmware and software, the brain and the mind is in regards to consciousness. The batter hits the ball there is little to no conscious thought, so we can ascribe that to the firmware of the brain. "

No.

Firmware = unconscious functions of the nervous system (breathing, reflexes, blinking, heart pumping, etc)

Software = thought processing and consciousness

"Patients who suffering from a condition called blindsight, can recognize shapes and colors without a conscious visual experience of them. If you asked a patient to chose the yellow object among a set of colored objects, he succeeds in doing so. But the patient would would report that he didn’t see anything, that he was just guessing."

Humans aren't the only animals that respond to specific stimuli. There is nothing surprising about this. This is also an irrelevant "point" you are injecting.

"Would we say in such cases, it was the firmware of the brain that recognized the correct object, but not the mind, since he lacked a visual conscious experience? Sort of the way we might say a frog identifies a fly, without being conscious himself? That in such an instance we’re not talking about the mind, since consciousness is not really involved, but just purely the firmware of the brain?"

No. No. No.

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