Take the Virgins!
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24-06-2015, 03:03 PM
Take the Virgins!
So I posted this on Facebook (yes, I'm still on Facebook. Call it hope. I have hope that believers will see what's wrong with religion. Useless hope? Probably)

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I got a few likes, and one person shared it. Then I got a response:

Quote:The Midionites were doing ABOMINTATIONS against The Lord, so that's why He instructed this to happen. All trace of the sin had to be erased. When this wasn't done, bad things happened later on: they didn't stop another similar Tribe-& HAMAN came from that, the man who wanted to destroy every Hebrew person on the face of the earth, but Ruth stopped him. God doesn't slay and kill people randomly. Please read from a The Amplified Bible and The Voice &/or Message, as these really break down what happened- Word for Word.

I could be a sorta douchebag and say, "You said Ruth, it was Esther! Hahaaaa! You lose." But I decided that that would be known as the "fallacy fallacy" and just see it as I know what this person was trying to say. Instead I tried simply respond to the content itself. Being that I've thought a hell of a lot about this subject I tried to cram my response in a paragraph (I would like to know how I can "return" to make more paragraphs when responding on facebook so it's not some huge almost unreadable blob, but anyhow here's my response, and I separated it here):

Quote:Believe me when I tell you that while reading the Bible I am always considering what the best Christian apologetics and commentaries have to say, especially with troubling passages like this one.

Unfortunately none of the explanations provide good enough explanations for me. This sort of behavior is unacceptable to us in present day society. Consider it in context. So, yes, the Midianites were pagans and therefore enemies of God. In chapter 25, the Midianite women tempt many of the Israelite men into paganism. Now let's look at the worst of the worst in more recent history. Custer, Hitler, Ted Bundy. We can agree those were very bad men.

But what if fate had dealt a different hand? What if the native American gods told them to raid Custer's camp and kill everyone. But don't stop there, raid his home village, kill all the men, all the women, all the little ones, EXCEPT the young virgin women - keep them for yourselves. Or maybe the gods would tell them to do this much earlier, and stop Custer's parents from conceiving.

Then we're down the argument of shouldn't everyone have a chance? Everyone's a potential Hitler. What if we had a chance to actually find out who actually will be one, and stop them before they get the chance. Then we've got the argument brought on by movies like "Minority Report". Precrime for the win!

But... by the logic of the Bible, all this argument is made mute by four important words: "Thus saith the Lord". Then of course you can end the argument. God is just and perfect. "Should I really just kill all those people?" "Yes." "Why?" "Because thus saith the Lord." Now in present day society, most find this behavior unacceptable. Most that is except for fundamentalists who form terrorist groups based on what their god tells them to do.

I recognize there's a lot of "whatifs" here, which is problematic for debates. I suppose I should have stuck with the actual known terrorist groups that use this line of reasoning. But I felt it necessary to make it a little more personal by asking what if we had the opportunity to change things. This person did talk about how not dealing with the bad villages brought about Haman. So I thought it was relevant. Don't worry, the person called me out, and I would respond but they sort of shut that down as well.

Quote:A lot of what-ifs. Evil flourishes because good men do nothing. I won't argue for Elohiym because His record will stand for Eternity- long after simple folk like me are gone.

I could respond or just take the high ground here. I'm no psychiatrist but it looks like they found what I had to say troubling and now they're shutting off. Giving me the "I'm not going to argue because I know God is on my side" routine.

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24-06-2015, 03:09 PM
RE: Take the Virgins!
I’d simply reply,

“Whatever let’s you sleep at night”.

or

“I thought your god was an all-forgiving, all-merciful god?”

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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24-06-2015, 03:25 PM
RE: Take the Virgins!
If the Midianites were making abomination against the Lord so badly they needed to be purged from the Earth, why not their virgin women too? Were they innocent? What did the little boys and the adults do that the little girls did not? What are those abominations they were all doing to deserve such a fate?

If the virgin women were corrupted, then you didn't destroy their sins according to Bible «logic». If they were innocent, then this means the Midianites were not all corrupted and evil. The destruction of their city wasn't necessary and it demonstrate that, on some occasion, God does kill randomly and uselessly. It's not like the Hebrew were actively trying to «save» those virgin girls from their evil family and masters. They attacked the city and killed its population to take their lands.
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24-06-2015, 03:44 PM
RE: Take the Virgins!
Where he said
Quote:All trace of the sin had to be erased
I would have simply asked why then could the virgins be kept? Couldn't all the little innocent boy children have been kept alive as well?

Further, I would have asked for clarity on exactly what the incident was that precipitated this holy genocide. The Israelite men were having sex with the Midianite women and worshiping the Midianite gods instead of the Israelite god? Gasp! Does that mean it is ok for Christians to go commit genocide against any non-Christian peoples who are attempting to convert Christians to their religion? No! Why? Because if "god" said to do that now, only the freakin' wackos would take it seriously.

Lastly, why didn't god do it his own damn self? I mean, fire and brimstone was good enough for the Sodomites. No, Moses had used up all the little virgins from the tribes of his kinsmen and needed his supply replenished. So he concocted this story to justify taking all the Midianites' girls for himself. Personally, I'm gonna let god off the hook on this one.

I just wanted to let you know that I love you even though you aren't naked right now. Heart
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25-06-2015, 07:56 AM
RE: Take the Virgins!
(24-06-2015 03:09 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  “I thought your god was an all-forgiving, all-merciful god?”

Come on FC, that was the OLD testament. The NEW testament is way better because that is where the concept of vicarious redemption and the torturous hell is introduced by the all loving and forgiving jesus who can forgive you of anything except for the heinous crime of not being convinced by bad evidence or by things that aren't even evidence at all. Big Grin

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The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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25-06-2015, 08:13 AM
RE: Take the Virgins!
I've never quite understood the obsession with virgins, it is not as if they are good lovers.
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25-06-2015, 08:22 AM
RE: Take the Virgins!
(25-06-2015 08:13 AM)Iñigo Wrote:  I've never quite understood the obsession with virgins, it is not as if they are good lovers.

It's about possession, ownership, insecurity, and power. Drinking Beverage


And she has no way to know that you have a tiny dick.

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25-06-2015, 08:52 AM
RE: Take the Virgins!
(24-06-2015 03:09 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  “I thought your god was an all-forgiving, all-merciful god?”

He inexplicably changed 2,000 years ago. Steadfast-God is surprisingly not steadfast.
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25-06-2015, 10:37 AM (This post was last modified: 25-06-2015 07:50 PM by jennybee.)
RE: Take the Virgins!
(25-06-2015 08:13 AM)Iñigo Wrote:  I've never quite understood the obsession with virgins, it is not as if they are good lovers.

One of the Bible commentaries I have mentions a strain of syphilis could have been prevalent around that time. Biblical people thought disease/illness was a punishment from God. And women in the Bible are often portrayed in a negative light--so it would make sense (in their minds) that std's were coming from females and not the other way around. A virgin woman would prevent the spread of std's, which would be interpreted as a sign from God that they were doing *right* by Him. This is my take on it anyway...but I am just a slutty atheist Tongue

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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25-06-2015, 10:55 AM
RE: Take the Virgins!
(25-06-2015 08:22 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-06-2015 08:13 AM)Iñigo Wrote:  I've never quite understood the obsession with virgins, it is not as if they are good lovers.

It's about possession, ownership, insecurity, and power. Drinking Beverage


And she has no way to know that you have a tiny dick.

Good points! I would also add that purity in relation to god(s) was common across many cultures. Not defiled='s perfection. God is perfect--so the thinking is, He likes perfect things. It's the same idea with animal sacrifices in Leviticus...the animals had to be in perfect condition for sacrifice. No anomalies, no certain spotting on coats etc.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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