Taking evolution: your inner fish course
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04-07-2014, 03:06 PM (This post was last modified: 04-07-2014 03:27 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Taking evolution: your inner fish course
So this week's discussion was:

Find at least one internet source which questions the validity of fossils as evidence of evolution. Briefly summarize their argument. Then find and describe a response by supporters of evolutionary theory. Evaluate the evidence supporting their positions. Cite your source(s) at the end of your post.

and my submission Smartass

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh the wonders of the internet. Amongst the plethora of delusional websites out there that try so hard to refute logic, science and empirical evidence, the cream of the crop so to speak would have to go to Answersingenesis. The founder of this misinformation site is Ken Ham, and he is a biblical literalist. These types are always the easiest to discredit. He posits that because there are fish fossils on top of mountains, that this proves the mythical global flood parable from Genesis 7 and 8.

“Marine fossils are also found high in the Himalayas, the world’s tallest mountain range, reaching up to 29,029 feet (8,848 m) above sea level.3 For example, fossil ammonites (coiled marine cephalopods) are found in limestone beds in the Himalayas of Nepal. All geologists agree that ocean waters must have buried these marine fossils in these limestone beds. So how did these marine limestone beds get high up in the Himalayas?” (Snelling 2007)

I will answer this in several layers. First, how did the fish fossils get on the mountaintop? Apparently he has not heard of plate tectonics or continental drift. In fact, with GPS satellite technology, we can see continental drift ongoing, the continents move approx. 2-4 inches further apart each year. It was not the mythical global flood that put the fish on the mountaintops, but continents colliding and pushing up, thus depositing fish high into the lime layer exposed, as per below;

“The Himalayas are often referred to as the "roof of the world" because they host the highest peaks on Earth, most famously Mt. Everest at 8,848 meters above sea level. But the rock that caps Mt. Everest is limestone, a type of rock that forms at the bottom of warm, shallow seas and is composed primarily of fossilized marine creatures, everything from plankton to clams and fish. For years, geologists struggled to explain how the remains of tiny sea organisms could exist at the top of a mountain range.

Into the 1900s, many scientists believed that as Earth cooled after its formation, the planet's surface contracted and wrinkled like the skin of an apple, subjected to the sun and drying out over time. The contraction theory, independently proposed by two prominent scientists in the late 1800s and early 1900s, implied that mountain ranges like the Himalayas were forced up by the wrinkling process. This theory assumed that all of the features on Earth had formed during one cooling event and that the planet was relatively static, changing little as the cooling (and wrinkling) slowed to a halt over millions of years.

The Himalayas, as it turns out, started forming about 40 million years ago when the Indian Plate collided head-on with the Eurasian Plate, shoving and folding rocks that had formed below sea level into lofty peaks. Because the Indian Plate is still moving northward, the Himalayas are still rising at a rate of about 1 cm per year. We no longer need to invoke a shrinking, wrinkled Earth to explain the marine fossils at the top of these tall mountains; it is the process of plate tectonics that continues to lift seafloor rocks to the sky.” (Egger, 2003)

Second, the global flood never happened. There is not enough water on or in the world to cover the highest mountain by 40 feet. Ice cores from Greenland have been dated back more than 40,000 years by counting annual layers. A worldwide flood would be expected to leave a layer of sediments, noticeable changes in salinity and oxygen isotope ratios, fractures from buoyancy and thermal stresses, a hiatus in trapped air bubbles, and probably other evidence. But alas, this of course doesn’t exist. How are the polar ice caps even possible? Such a mass of water as the Flood would have provided sufficient buoyancy to float the polar caps off their beds and break them up. They wouldn't regrow quickly. In fact, the Greenland ice cap would not regrow under modern (last 10 ky) climatic conditions.

Why did the Flood not leave traces on the sea floors? A year long flood should be recognizable in sea bottom cores by (1) an uncharacteristic amount of terrestrial detritus, (2) different grain size distributions in the sediment, (3) a shift in oxygen isotope ratios (rain has a different isotopic composition from seawater), (4) a massive extinction, and other characters. Why do none of these show up? Because it never happened.

Egyptian civilization is probably familiar to most of us. Egypt’s dynastic history started with the uniting of Upper and Lower Egypt by King Menes, around 3100 BCE. The Egyptian period known as the “Old Kingdom” lasted from 2800 to 2175 BCE. During this time many of the pyramids were built. There is no record, written or archaeological, for a monster flood destroying and completely interrupting this countries infrastructure or it’s monuments such as the Sphinx, the Step Pyramid, or the Great Pyramids, which were built before ‘The Flood’

China has a reasonably accurate history starting around 3000 BCE. According to texts from a Chinese book called “Shu King” and verified by archaeological records, China was undergoing a prosperous period around 2400 to 2200 BCE during the early Yaou Dynasty. They have no record of a cataclysmic flood interrupting their whole civilization and destroying the infrastructure of the country.

The Indus valley civilization has a well-known history dating back to perhaps 3100 BCE. By 2500 BCE there were two major cities, Mohendaro (or Mohenjo-Daro) and Harrapa, which rivaled Egypt and Mesopotamia in population and technologies. This great Civilization also encompassed maybe 100 smaller cities, towns, and villages, and didn’t fall until about 1500 BCE. They have no record of a worldwide civilization-destroying flood.

The Minoan civilization was probably as old as Egypt. Based on the Island of Crete, this civilization grew quickly and was highly advanced by 2500 BCE. By the middle of the second millennium it had an alphabet, used bronze tools, had pottery, textiles, advanced architecture, and had established cities around the Islands. It continued to grow and was a center for trade and culture until about the mid-1400′s BCE when it was suddenly destroyed by the violent eruption of the Thera volcano. There has been no evidence unearthed from this civilization that shows a flood destroying their whole infrastructure, at any time in their existence.

I could, and have before, write quite a lengthy paper refuting the global flood myth, but let’s look at it scientifically shall we? The conventional flood story states that the flood waters came from rain that lasted 40 days and 40 night right? Rain appears when the atmosphere can no longer support water in the vapor phase and it becomes saturated. So normally, the atmosphere is on the brink of saturation, and the variations in temperature and pressure caused by weather fronts are capable of altering the threshold at which precipitation will form quite easily. What about the amount of water vapor suspended in air needed for the 4.5 billion cubic kilometers of water needed for the global flood? The water vapor currently in the air is only around 2-3% on average, with a maximum of 4% limited by temperature and pressure.

The change in atmospheric conditions required to support enough vapor for 112 million cubic kilometers of rain per day - about 120,000 times more than the current daily rainfall worldwide - would have rendered the air unbreathable.

Indeed, the atmosphere really couldn't sustain that much water even under the most extreme temperature and pressure conditions the planet can produce. If the conditions were right for that much water to be in the atmosphere, humans and virtually every other animal would have drowned through the simple act of breathing, as well as turning the earth into the equivalent of a pressure cooker with atmospheric pressure at nearly a thousand psi instead of the standard 14.7 or so that we have today.

The global flood story requires that only eight people were left alive in 2349 BCE. This does not allow enough time for humans to repopulate the earth. In 2000 BCE only 350 years after the flood the population of the world was 27 million. To go from a population of eight to a population of 27 million in 350 years would require a population growth rate of 136.07%. That is 133% more than the fastest growing portions of the world today.

The Bible also places the date of construction on the Tower of Babel roughly 100 years after the great flood. Saying a population could go from 6 people (Noah and his wife don't count, they didn't have any more children) to enough people to build the Tower of Babel as it is described in the Bible is absurd. This tower was so great that it threatened "god", so it must have been greater that the pyramid of Khufu which took 30,000 people to build. Even a growth rate of 500%, which is even more absurd beyond all imagination, would only produce about half the required people to even begin to think about such a construction project.

“Just understand that it’s possible to observe the deviation of DNA strands by retroactively measuring them to a common strand. This period back to a common ancestor has been determined to be tens of thousands of years, an age remarkably consistent with the ones established for human civilization remains through previously mentioned dating methods. We do not see the five thousand years that our DNA would reveal if all humans descended from the sole survivors of God’s flood.” (Long 2005)

In regards to evolution and fossils, the law of faunal succession shows, " You will never find a Neanderthal bone in the same stratum as a Tyrannosaurus rex bone. Tyronnosaurus rexes weren’t alive at the same time; therefore, their stratum didn’t get laid down at the same time.” And seashell fossils found in the Appalachian mountains (world’s oldest mountain range) “The shells were deposited in layers on the Ocean floor over millions of years, layers that would be violently broken up and rippled into a mountain range 480,000,000 years ago by a catastrophic earthquake.” (Somma 2012)

I could go on and on, but let’s simply say, upon careful contemplation of all known evidence, there is as much chance the global flood happened, as there is that I have a unicorn in my backyard. Zero. Thus Ken Ham's ideological young earth creationist view is invalid.



References:

Egger, Anne (2003 July). The origins of plate tectonic theory. Visionlearning.

Retrieved from http://www.visionlearning.com/en/library...-Theory/65

Long, J. (2005 January). Biblical nonsense: A review of the bible for doubting christians. Lincoln, NE: I universe Publishing
Retrieved from http://www.biblicalnonsense.com/chapter6.html

Snelling, A. (2007 September). High & dry sea creatures; flood evidence number one.
Retrieved from https://answersingenesis.org/fossils/fos...creatures/

Somma, R. (2012 february). 101 reasons why evolution is true.
Retrieved from http://ideonexus.com/2012/02/12/101-reas...oftheEarth




-----------------------------------

thoughts, comments welcome Yes

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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05-07-2014, 04:43 PM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2014 06:42 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Taking evolution: your inner fish course
Oh holy unicorn these guys are killing me, here is some of the brilliant postings, names removed for privacy lol. I will bolden my inputs for ease of separation. In regards to evolution:

Girl S - Many dates that we see noting humans and apelike creatures as having a common ancestor have come, not from fossils, but from assumptions based on similar DNA sequences. "The iconic depiction of a hunched monkey gradually developing into an uprightwalking human has been viewed by most people. The problem is that much of the visuals are made up. The absence of a consistent story of evolution is obvious in the way that human ancestry is presented in the textbooks.” (Patterson) There is consistently a lack of agreement among scientists regarding the evolution of humans. Upon further examination of the fossils assumed as human ancestors, scientists have found specimens that “overlap in evolutionary time” and contain gaps of millions of years. Scientists, textbooks, teachers, etc. are all indicative of different theories of human evolution and whether or not we have really evolved from apelike creatures or have always been what we are. "There is no consensus on the path to humans, and any representation of the lineage is highly subjective.” (Patterson) This article later goes on to show chapters from a book. Chapter 10.1 contains a paragraph depicting the dishonesty in paleoanthropologists to get the results they want. There have been reported cases of paleoanthropologists combining pieces from an ape fossil and a human fossil and calling it a hominid ancestor. They will also place emphasis on apelike qualities in human fossils or human qualities in apelike fossils. The physical evidence behind fossils proving evolution is not definitive enough.

Facepalm

my response to girl "S"

S########,

Intriguing point of view. Lets look at some facts together;

“Evidence of common descent of living things has been discovered by scientists working in a variety of fields over many years. This evidence has demonstrated and verified the occurrence of evolution and provided a wealth of information on the natural processes by which the variety and diversity of life on Earth developed. This evidence supports the modern evolutionary synthesis, the current scientific theory that explains how and why life changes over time. Evolutionary biologists document evidence of common descent: making testable predictions, testing hypotheses, and developing theories that illustrate and describe its causes.

Comparison of the DNA genetic sequences of organisms has revealed that organisms that are phylogenetically close have a higher degree of DNA sequence similarity than organisms that are phylogenetically distant. Further evidence for common descent comes from genetic detritus such as pseudogenes, regions of DNA that are orthologous to a gene in a related organism, but are no longer active and appear to be undergoing a steady process of degeneration from cumulative mutations.

Fossils are important for estimating when various lineages developed in geologic time. As fossilization is an uncommon occurrence, usually requiring hard body parts and death near a site where sediments are being deposited, the fossil record only provides sparse and intermittent information about the evolution of life. Evidence of organisms prior to the development of hard body parts such as shells, bones and teeth is especially scarce, but exists in the form of ancient microfossils, as well as impressions of various soft-bodied organisms. The comparative study of the anatomy of groups of animals shows structural features that are fundamentally similar or homologous, demonstrating phylogenetic and ancestral relationships with other organisms, most especially when compared with fossils of ancient extinct organisms. Vestigial structures and comparisons in embryonic development are largely a contributing factor in anatomical resemblance in concordance with common descent. Since metabolic processes do not leave fossils, research into the evolution of the basic cellular processes is done largely by comparison of existing organisms’ physiology and biochemistry. Many lineages diverged at different stages of development, so it is possible to determine when certain metabolic processes appeared by comparing the traits of the descendants of a common ancestor. Universal biochemical organization and molecular variance patterns in all organisms also show a direct correlation with common descent.

Further evidence comes from the field of biogeography because evolution with common descent provides the best and most thorough explanation for a variety of facts concerning the geographical distribution of plants and animals across the world. This is especially obvious in the field of island biogeography. Combined with the theory of plate tectonics common descent provides a way to combine facts about the current distribution of species with evidence from the fossil record to provide a logically consistent explanation of how the distribution of living organisms has changed over time.

The development and spread of antibiotic resistant bacteria, like the spread of pesticide resistant forms of plants and insects provides evidence that evolution due to natural selection is an ongoing process in the natural world. Alongside this, are observed instances of the separation of populations of species into sets of new species (speciation). Speciation has been observed directly and indirectly in the lab and in nature. Multiple forms of such have been described and documented as examples for individual modes of speciation.” (Rodriguez 2012)

You said, “There is consistently a lack of agreement among scientists regarding the evolution of humans.” I find this to be an amazing assertion. To counter this bit of misinformation consider;

“The vast majority of the scientific community and academia supports evolutionary theory as the only explanation that can fully account for observations in the fields of biology, paleontology, molecular biology, genetics, anthropology, and others. A total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists support evolution. An expert in the evolution-creationism controversy, professor and author Brian Alters, states that "99.9 percent of scientists accept evolution". Additionally, the scientific community considers intelligent design, a neo-creationist offshoot, to be unscientific, pseudoscience, or junk science.

The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of their own. 38 Nobel laureates issued a statement saying "Intelligent design is fundamentally unscientific; it cannot be tested as scientific theory because its central conclusion is based on belief in the intervention of a supernatural agent."

A coalition representing more than 70,000 Australian scientists and science teachers issued a statement saying "intelligent design is not science" and calling on "all schools not to teach Intelligent Design (ID) as science, because it fails to qualify on every count as a scientific theory".

An amicus curiae brief, signed by 72 US Nobel Prize winners, 17 state academies of science and 7 other scientific societies, asked the US Supreme Court in Edwards v. Aguillard, to reject a Louisiana state law requiring the teaching of creationism (which the brief described as embodying religious dogma). This was the largest collection of Nobel Prize winners to sign such a supporting document providing the "clearest statement by scientists in support of evolution yet produced."

The American Association for the Advancement of Science, the world's largest general scientific society with more than 130,000 members and over 262 affiliated societies and academies of science including over 10 million individuals, has made several statements and issued several press releases in support of evolution.

The prestigious United States National Academy of Sciences, which provides science advice to the nation, has published several books supporting evolution and denouncing creationism and intelligent design. A poll by Pew Research Center found that "Nearly all scientists (97%) say humans and other living things have evolved over time - common decent with modifications." (Natskep staff 2013)

You also stated, “Chapter 10.1 contains a paragraph depicting the dishonesty in paleoanthropologists to get the results they want. There have been reported cases of paleoanthropologists combining pieces from an ape fossil and a human fossil and calling it a hominid ancestor”. Pointing to rare cases like the Piltdown man as evidence to discount the overwhelming evidence that supports evolution is disingenuous. Surely they can do better than that if ones wish is to debunk the millions of pieces of evidence, thousands of cross verified studies and plethora of empirical evidence that supports evolution. The good news is education in the subject will provide us all the tools we need to be able to understand the process and the evidence. Great post, I look forward to learning more with you.

References:

Rodriguez, T. (2012) Evidence of common descent.

Retrieved from http://www.darwinwasright.org/

Natskep staff. (2013) Belief in evolution has increased since 2004 in the united states.

Retrieved from http://natskep.com/belief-in-evolution-h...ed-states/


Smartass

boy "W",

Opponents of fossil evolution at pbs.org points to the gaps in the fossil record as proof that the theory is invalid. They state that the fossil record fails to show what are called "transitional forms,"generally the in-between stages as one type of creature evolved into another.

Dr. John Morris makes his claim that there are some fossils, however, that cannot be made to fit the evolutionary timeline at all. Such fossils, called anomalous fossils, are found in layers totally out of kilter with evolution. He furthermore states "the most startling evidence is human artifacts, such as the bronze bell. It was encased in a large piece of coal. Standard dating of the bituminous coal seam from which it was taken dates it from the Carboniferous Period, approximately 300 million years old. Certainly no human artifact could reside in such "ancient" strata. This "fossil" is anomalous indeed."

The fossil record simply does not support the evolutionary theory, which claims there once existed a series of successive forms leading to the present-day organism. The theory states that infinitesimal changes within each generation evolve into a new species, but the scientific fact remains. They don't.

Fossils prove the sudden emergence of a new species out of nowhere, complete with characteristics unknown in any other species. The fossil record has no intermediate or transitional forms. This is popularly known as the "missing link" problem, and it exists in all species. The missing link problem is getting worse, not better, with the discovery of more fossils.

The missing links are not being discovered, which proves they never existed. Darwin assumed transitional forms would be discovered in the fossil record over time, but that has not been the case. The fossil record, or lack thereof, is a major embarrassment to evolutionists.

Weeping

my response to "W",

W#######,

Good post, although some of the information you posted may be unintentionally from a misinformed source, but that is why we are all here right? To learn. You said, "They state that the fossil record fails to show what are called "transitional forms,"generally the in-between stages as one type of creature evolved into another." and this is where you have been misled. The internet can be quite the tricky research base to navigate. You can find people who purport the earth is flat, that 9/11 never happened, and the story of miracle performing jesus is true. Making an invalid, unsubstantiated claim assertively does not make it true, even if you nod your head while saying it.

Transitional fossils do exist, an easy example is from the text with Tiktaalik (Coyne 2008) and while I don’t like to quote wiki as a reference, it is easy to validate the list, here is an extensive list of transitional fossils (ref b)… .the discovery of more and more transitional fossils continues to add to knowledge of evolutionary transitions, making many of the "missing links" missing no more. ... Proponents of creationism have frequently made claims about the existence or implications of transitional fossils that some of the scientific community considers to be false and misleading. Some of these claims include: 'There are no transitional fossils.'

Richard Dawkins, a world-reknown evolutionist biologist said, “The distribution of fossils in space and in time are exactly what you would expect if evolution were a fact. There are millions of facts all pointing in the same direction and no facts pointing in the wrong direction. British scientist J.B.S. Haldane, when asked what would constitute evidence against evolution, famously said, "Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian." They've never been found. Nothing like that has ever been found.”

In regards to anomalous fossils, which are discredited faster than they are found, here is some information to ponder… It was soon pointed out by the geologist NCSE researcher John Cole that minerals dissolved from ancient strata can harden around a recent object, making it look impressive to someone unfamiliar with geological processes. “The stone is real, and it looks impressive to someone unfamiliar with geological processes. How could a modern artefact be stuck in Ordovician rock? The answer is that the concretion itself is not Ordovician. Minerals in solution can harden around an intrusive object dropped in a crack or simply left on the ground if the source rock (in this case, reportedly Ordovician) is chemically soluble” (Cole, 1985).

Cross validation of “evidence” from either perspective is essential as a lot of hubris, agenda based “professional” opinions are out there that sound good, look good, but upon careful consideration are either subjective, extremely biased or intentionally misleading.

References:

Coyne, J. (2008) Your inner fish. New York. Vintage Books Inc.

Wikipedia. (2013) Long, J. (2005 January). List of transitional fossils. Web.

Retrieved from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tra...al_fossils

Cole (1985). A catalogue of anomalous discoveries. Web.

Retrieved from http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/ooparts.htm


Drooling

then this little special child....

J########,

In my opinion, I feel that many in the general public doubt the Theory of Evolution because all of creation could not have happened without a creator. The Bible is a great source which accounts for earth’s creation in Genesis 1:1-31. It is explained how God created the heaven and earth and it goes on to include all of creation and how it came about. The second reason I think many in the general public doubt the Theory of Evolution is because life is unable to derive directly from non-living matter which is proven in the scientific fact of The Law of Biogenesis. The Law of Biogenesis, attributed to Louis Pasteur, is the observation that living things come only from other living things, by reproduction.

Works Cited
In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood. (2014, July 03). Retrieved from Center for Scientific Creation: http://www.creationscience.com/onlineboo...nces4.html

The Holy Bible. (1987). Nashville: Thomas Nelson, Inc.

I didn't even bother to reply to her...what can you say except Facepalm

Laugh out load

these people make me feel smart Yes

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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05-07-2014, 05:32 PM
RE: Taking evolution: your inner fish course
99 % of organisms on the planet do not die in conditions that allow for fossilization. Therefore what is surprising is that we have so many, not that some seem to be few. The conditions that allow for fossils are very specific.

A real deity could make life work under ANY circumstances, not just specially "designed" ones. "Intelligent Design" is actually an argument against an omnipotent deity.

There is a great PBS series from this Spring : Your Inner Fish, Your Inner Reptile, and Your Inner Monkey. Not sure if they are up for free on-line viewing.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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05-07-2014, 05:49 PM
RE: Taking evolution: your inner fish course
You have your first fan, I am liking these rebuttals Yes

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOW_Ioi2wtuPa88FvBmnBgQ my youtube
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05-07-2014, 06:08 PM
RE: Taking evolution: your inner fish course
(05-07-2014 04:43 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  ...
S########,
...
W#######,
...
J########,

I'll go with:

hitforbrains

hattheactualfuck

esushchristshootmenow

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05-07-2014, 06:44 PM
RE: Taking evolution: your inner fish course
(05-07-2014 06:08 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(05-07-2014 04:43 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  ...
S########,
...
W#######,
...
J########,

I'll go with:

hitforbrains

hattheactualfuck

esushchristshootmenow

you must know them! Yes

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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06-07-2014, 12:53 AM (This post was last modified: 06-07-2014 01:12 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Taking evolution: your inner fish course
(05-07-2014 04:43 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  ...
Great post, I look forward to learning more with you.
...

^^^ I loved that. Noted: 'with' not 'from'. Big Grin

I am re-reading the exchanges.

For S#### you could also mention the recent ruling in the UK that creation is no longer to be taught as 'fact' in state-funded schools.

For W####, offer this newspaper headline ... "Rare discovery unearthed in China: Two more gaps in the fossil record found!"

For J####, ask them to scrape their skin. Again and again until there is nothing left. The entire human body is made up of non-living material. But yes, I agree... probably a lost cause.

Wink

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06-07-2014, 04:55 AM
RE: Taking evolution: your inner fish course
(06-07-2014 12:53 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(05-07-2014 04:43 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  ...
Great post, I look forward to learning more with you.
...

^^^ I loved that. Noted: 'with' not 'from'. Big Grin

I am re-reading the exchanges.

For S#### you could also mention the recent ruling in the UK that creation is no longer to be taught as 'fact' in state-funded schools.

For W####, offer this newspaper headline ... "Rare discovery unearthed in China: Two more gaps in the fossil record found!"

For J####, ask them to scrape their skin. Again and again until there is nothing left. The entire human body is made up of non-living material. But yes, I agree... probably a lost cause.

Wink

I enjoy walking the narrow path between wit and outright sarcasm Drooling

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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09-07-2014, 07:43 PM
RE: Taking evolution: your inner fish course
In response to another students intelligent design based reply to me, I responded with.....

A#########,

Science doesn't have all the answers, and there is a good possibility we may never have them. But we are making great strides down the road of knowledge and discovering amazing things every day. There really is no need to make up stories of alternate supernatural answers simply because we don't have all of the facts yet. Especially since said alternate can be traced back to its very inception, fabrication, and dissemination, thus invalidating itself. Two different discussions in my opinion. This is a science class, and not a theology class where we could sit around and philosophically discuss the Socratic method of understanding the principle of pre-conditions of intelligibility etc. or a plethora of other theological concepts of transcendental dimensions of reality. The answer to the question what is 2 + 2 isn't jesus, or spongebob, or zeus...it is 4.

An open mind is all we can ever hope to have, it is the only way we can learn new things, accept validated evidence and come to a better understanding of this beautiful world around us...

Eric

Laugh out load Drooling

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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10-07-2014, 05:20 PM (This post was last modified: 10-07-2014 05:35 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Taking evolution: your inner fish course
oh it just gets better...lol so here is some more insightful posits from fellow students who believe in a more, booga booga answer to the question of life...

My reply below, I quoted and broke down his whole statement and refuted it.

C######,

Interesting post. You said, “To date, no fossils have been found of an animal that displays traits of both birds and reptiles at the same time.”

That is because they go down different lines. Check out reference at bottom.

“This lack of evidence does lend some weight to the argument of creationism”….

No I disagree. That is apples and oranges, science and fiction, fact and fantasy; one has nothing to do with the other. The biblical creation story can be traced back to its fabrication, I can do that for you, but that takes us way off the subject matter in question and is quite a lengthy bit of information. Suffice it to say one is an allegorical story, and the other based on empirical evidence, facts, reason and logic.

“ however the majority of our oceans, their floors in particular, have not been explored and probably hide some pretty convincing evidence.”

I completely agree.

“The reality of the situation is that neither side can accurately prove their particular belief as correct until more evidence is discovered.”

Science isn’t a belief, nor is it based on faith. Here let me break it down a bit more.

Faith - the belief in something without evidence.

Delusion - A belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

Religion - The embracement of delusion.

Science isn’t a belief system, it doesn’t require faith, it requires provable evidence. Nothing in a faith based belief system has proof, which is why it requires faith, if it had proof, it would be called fact and be taught in public school, like evolution is.

Good post

E######

http://www.transitionalfossils.com/

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Laugh out load

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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