Talking in Tongues.
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28-09-2011, 05:42 PM
Talking in Tongues.
I would like to address this issue primarily to some of our theist friends.
In my secular research I once attended a charismatic meeting where loud shouts of "Jesus" along with shrieks and mutterings were expressed. There were also gyrations, waves, handclaps, and facial expressions of bliss.

I would like to ask (I am aware of the origins) if demons could not masquerade as healers at these events. There is Biblical reference to demons performing miracles etc.


(2) What are the bona fides of the Pentecostal people who interpret the foreign tongues spoken?


(3) Do you see all this writhing about, ranting and shrieking as an important part of what you deem as the essential Christian message.

Just for the record; while I beleve in demonic or evil behaviour ,I am not a fan of those allegedly lurking within bodies requiring exorcism etc. What do you think?

"There is no cosmic certainty beyond beyond a rigid scepticism"
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28-09-2011, 09:11 PM
RE: Talking in Tongues.
(28-09-2011 05:42 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I would like to address this issue primarily to some of our theist friends.
In my secular research I once attended a charismatic meeting where loud shouts of "Jesus" along with shrieks and mutterings were expressed. There were also gyrations, waves, handclaps, and facial expressions of bliss.

I would like to ask (I am aware of the origins) if demons could not masquerade as healers at these events. There is Biblical reference to demons performing miracles etc.


(2) What are the bona fides of the Pentecostal people who interpret the foreign tongues spoken?


(3) Do you see all this writhing about, ranting and shrieking as an important part of what you deem as the essential Christian message.

Just for the record; while I beleve in demonic or evil behaviour ,I am not a fan of those allegedly lurking within bodies requiring exorcism etc. What do you think?

"There is no cosmic certainty beyond beyond a rigid scepticism"

I have been to churchs where that behaviour was normal - although the church I attended was more conservative -
Talking in to tongues was seem as 'being closer to god'.
What is it? Well its not god, nor demons, its the human mind doing its thing - I can talk in tongues at will, even now, its not hard, its just a mind set -
No demons, just people getting an experience from bein super hyped up -
going to a great concert has the same effect ...

I want for myself what I want for every women, absolute equality. Agnes Macphail
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29-09-2011, 12:01 AM
RE: Talking in Tongues.
(28-09-2011 09:11 PM)Blythe Wrote:  
(28-09-2011 05:42 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I would like to address this issue primarily to some of our theist friends.
In my secular research I once attended a charismatic meeting where loud shouts of "Jesus" along with shrieks and mutterings were expressed. There were also gyrations, waves, handclaps, and facial expressions of bliss.

I would like to ask (I am aware of the origins) if demons could not masquerade as healers at these events. There is Biblical reference to demons performing miracles etc.


(2) What are the bona fides of the Pentecostal people who interpret the foreign tongues spoken?


(3) Do you see all this writhing about, ranting and shrieking as an important part of what you deem as the essential Christian message.

Just for the record; while I beleve in demonic or evil behaviour ,I am not a fan of those allegedly lurking within bodies requiring exorcism etc. What do you think?

"There is no cosmic certainty beyond beyond a rigid scepticism"

I have been to churchs where that behaviour was normal - although the church I attended was more conservative -
Talking in to tongues was seem as 'being closer to god'.
What is it? Well its not god, nor demons, its the human mind doing its thing - I can talk in tongues at will, even now, its not hard, its just a mind set -
No demons, just people getting an experience from bein super hyped up -
going to a great concert has the same effect ...
Thanks for your input.
Is the 'speaking in tongues" mind set you refer to understandable to you and others or simply incoherent babble? Are you partially aware of what you are saying or is it totally beyond your control?

There have been some reports, pretty rare, of people speaking in a foreign tongue post anaesthesia.
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29-09-2011, 03:18 AM
RE: Talking in Tongues.
(29-09-2011 12:01 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(28-09-2011 09:11 PM)Blythe Wrote:  
(28-09-2011 05:42 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I would like to address this issue primarily to some of our theist friends.
In my secular research I once attended a charismatic meeting where loud shouts of "Jesus" along with shrieks and mutterings were expressed. There were also gyrations, waves, handclaps, and facial expressions of bliss.

I would like to ask (I am aware of the origins) if demons could not masquerade as healers at these events. There is Biblical reference to demons performing miracles etc.


(2) What are the bona fides of the Pentecostal people who interpret the foreign tongues spoken?


(3) Do you see all this writhing about, ranting and shrieking as an important part of what you deem as the essential Christian message.

Just for the record; while I beleve in demonic or evil behaviour ,I am not a fan of those allegedly lurking within bodies requiring exorcism etc. What do you think?

"There is no cosmic certainty beyond beyond a rigid scepticism"

I have been to churchs where that behaviour was normal - although the church I attended was more conservative -
Talking in to tongues was seem as 'being closer to god'.
What is it? Well its not god, nor demons, its the human mind doing its thing - I can talk in tongues at will, even now, its not hard, its just a mind set -
No demons, just people getting an experience from bein super hyped up -
going to a great concert has the same effect ...
Thanks for your input.
Is the 'speaking in tongues" mind set you refer to understandable to you and others or simply incoherent babble? Are you partially aware of what you are saying or is it totally beyond your control?

There have been some reports, pretty rare, of people speaking in a foreign tongue post anaesthesia.

On our news a week or so ago was a lady who had a stroke and started speaking with a Scottish accent - it is a document side effect of some brain injures.
Speaking in tongues - I would say everyone controls it, and if they say different they are properly not being totally truthful. Sure you can get carried away with the hype, the music, the emotion but really if someone yelled fire, they would all stop and look. Its not 'babble' its like playing a new piece of music, it just sounds put together in a different way.
Do people understand it, of course not, it isn't 'real' it doesn't mean anything, people think its real, but in the end the mind is just doing its thing.

I want for myself what I want for every women, absolute equality. Agnes Macphail
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29-09-2011, 05:10 AM (This post was last modified: 29-09-2011 05:18 AM by Filox.)
RE: Talking in Tongues.
This is one of the funniest religious things I've seen. What I think about these mambo-jumbo is that at least half of these people are acting just to be a part of their congregation. Other half are crazy enough to go into a trance, like a meditative state so that the words come out of their mouth, without them being aware of them. Of course, this has nothing to do with any religion, this is no language at all, it means nothing, complete BS.

About demons, if you believe in them, I would say that most, if not all of these charismatic leaders are demons disguised as leaders. Because no moral or even good person would live in a monumentally huge building like church or monastery, be dressed in expensive robes, drink from a golden goblet and then preach about humility and decency, lying through their teeth and accepting even more money and power from their followers. The very concept of having followers is demonic. Followers give their trust to them, then money, so you gain more power with more followers and that is what every demon wants, power.

And if this "speaks in tongues" is true, than it can only be a tongue of the demons, can't you hears how horrible it sounds? Ever seen Exorcist?

Smile

Here is Timothy Leary explaining a few things...
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealFilox...DDMk6FCYIk

On 5:50 he start talking about Cults and followers and leaders and for you who don't know about Tim Leary, he was one very charismatic person with thousands of "followers", a university professor, an "LSD movement" guru, but not by his wish, as he stated here. He explained these things very nice.

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
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29-09-2011, 10:48 AM
RE: Talking in Tongues.
Speaking in tounges is complete and total babble, made up by the babblers. I say this as one who babbled!! Depending on your background or life experience, the babble could sound like a legitimate foreign language. Our brains pick up all sorts of junk throughout our lives.

Growing up, we'd have moments in the service where everyone would just babble and sing whatever came to mind, and the musicians would just play whatever they felt. Sometimes the chaos just sounded really cool, so I can see how people could get swept up and feel like it was something they couldn't control.

Still, it's completely made up.

It's no different than this, just more...spontaneous.




We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.

- Carl Sagan
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29-09-2011, 11:39 AM
RE: Talking in Tongues.
(28-09-2011 05:42 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I would like to address this issue primarily to some of our theist friends.
In my secular research I once attended a charismatic meeting where loud shouts of "Jesus" along with shrieks and mutterings were expressed. There were also gyrations, waves, handclaps, and facial expressions of bliss.

You say you "address this issue primarily to some of our theist friends." Interesting.

Equally interesting to me is your "secular research," and would ask if it is common procedure to investigate those who hold to a belief without first investigating the source of that belief?

And did your "research" consist of only "one" "experiment?"

Okay, as a "theist friend," I will address your address as best as I can, as this is an issue that I feel is just one area that illustrates the need to understand the basis of belief...before attempting to understand "believers."


(28-09-2011 05:42 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I would like to ask (I am aware of the origins) if demons could not masquerade as healers at these events. There is Biblical reference to demons performing miracles etc.

Not only is it possible, but in many cases probable. Scripture teaches that Satan and his ministers appear as "ministers of righteousness," (2 Corinthians 11), so the absolute need to understand the doctrine that will be brought by those God has truly sent (as opposed to those in 2 Cor. 11) is vital, and the claims of those who have not been sent by God can be easily discerned.

I would be curious as to what you base the statement " There is Biblical reference to demons performing miracles etc..." on.


(28-09-2011 05:42 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  (2) What are the bona fides of the Pentecostal people who interpret the foreign tongues spoken?

Thats just it: how can you verify "credentials" of something that is in error with what scripture teaches?

In large part, what Pentecostals and Charismatics proclaim to be "speaking in tongues" is not what scripture is talking about. Many sincere believers in this movement "take it on faith that what they have been and are being taught is sound doctrine taken from the word of God.

However, when we see in scripture those who we know are truly Apostles speaking in tongues, they are not speaking in an "angelic language," but in known dialects. The insertion of the word "unknown" in the KJV can be justified, and the translators' theology not called into question, but it has led to confusion which...God has not authored.

When it comes to "interpretation of languages," it will be similar to the biblical teaching of speaking in tongues, meaning, they have the ability to speak (and interpret) languages they have not learned.

This was instrumental in the spread of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that which is taught today as "speaking in tongues" is something that science itself has studied and determined that it is clearly not either language or languages, based upon the lack of consistency. Basically, if it were an "angelic language," they would be able to verify this due to consistency in the pattern of speech, and we would not assume that if this were an angelic language, there would be more than one, which might give credibility to that spoken by those who say they "speak in tongues."

Scripture seems (to me at least) to be clear that when certain "spoke in languages," they did just that...spoke in languages. Acts 2 shows the different languages groups assembled for Pentecost who heard "every man in their own language.


(28-09-2011 05:42 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  (3) Do you see all this writhing about, ranting and shrieking as an important part of what you deem as the essential Christian message.

No. I see it as something that is not sound doctrine which gives some the excuse to blaspheme God.

While I do not despise my Pentecostal and Charismatic brethren (I do believe there are true believers who are saved among them...salvation is not dependant upon doctrinal flawlessness, but upon true faith), I will not fail to mention that their doctrine is indeed flawed, and believe I can, by scripture itself, point this out. That does not mean they will choose to reverse their beliefs concerning this, especially when you calculate the loyalty that is inherent in all of us to those things we come to believe. It isn't just a matter of honestly looking at what scripture teaches, but involved also is heritage, a particularly dangerous aspect of man's make-up. On top of that, is the intense pride that will not allow us at times to simly admit...we are wrong. Most of us are guilty of this trait.

(28-09-2011 05:42 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  (3) Do you see all this writhing about, ranting and shrieking as an important part of what you deem as the essential Christian message.

I understand that it is hard to see this as I do, which is a question based upon a false premise, leading to an answer that is truly not relevant to what scripture teaches.

The Christian Message has not changed, not from the first century: it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is that He died according to the scriptures (the Old Testament prophecy concerning Him), was buried, and resurrected.

The instruction found in the New Testament is not to be considered the "Christian Message," especially those things that in fact...scripture does not instruct about.

Ecstatic speech is just such a teaching. It is sad that in many of the churches that adhere to ecstatic speech (and there are those who are not the caricature that can be seen in many media sources) they actually "teach" how one can "learn" how to do this. Speaking in tongues in scripture is a gift of God...not something learned.

So, in answer to this question, again...no. Because it is not part of the Christian Message, nor is it even part of Christianity. I would suggest looking into the history of ecstatic speech, the Oracle of Delphi is an interesting start, though I do not think this pagan practice began there.

But there are things practiced by Christians today that could be listed as practice that have no basis in scripture. Another would be "tithing." While the New Testament, in particular instruction given to Christians, teaches that we are to support those who minister the Gospel, in no place does it include tithing as something from Judaism which was carried over into Christianity. And just like many of the charlatans on TV use ecstatic speech as a "validation" that they are ministers of righteousness, even so many (howbeit sincere) teach tithing as a means of profit, rather than teaching correctly Christian Doctrine concerning giving and support of not just true ministers of the gospel, but also the destitute.

(28-09-2011 05:42 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Just for the record; while I beleve in demonic or evil behaviour ,I am not a fan of those allegedly lurking within bodies requiring exorcism etc. What do you think?

I very much believe in demon possession. Scripture teaches this, why would I not?

(28-09-2011 05:42 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  "There is no cosmic certainty beyond beyond a rigid scepticism"

Look, when it comes to those who "rant and rave," I myself can see how they can incorporate this practice into their belief system. Even as I can understand how one might believe that to do work of any kind on a sunday is sin. But if we look at what scripture actually teaches about a particular doctrine, we can forego syllogistic reasoning and the conclusions this will bring, and instead approach the subject in a way that is reasonable.

I do not often include scripture that has not been specifically brought up, but if you don't mind, I will at this time include this:


1 Corinthians 14

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?


Notice v. 22 refers to tongues as a sign to unbelievers...not for believers? A look at Acts 2 verifies how this works, for they heard in their own "tongues" the wonderful works of God...showing they had full comrehension of what was being said. But here Paul makes it clear that if an unbeliever comes into a place and witnesses "everybody speaking with tongues," they will declare the people doing so to be mad.

How is that if the gift of tongues is for...unbelievers? It seems quite clear, when balancing this with all that Paul has to say on the subject, that the "unlearned or unbelievers" are not hearing their own language (and they would have to be multi-lingual in order to hear many tongues) but something which he also addresses within this particular passage: speech which is not recognizable, and is therefore...useless.

I also "researched" this in the ealry days of my youth. I had friends who were charismatic, and I went to many meetings where this very behavior is the norm.

I too, thought they were mad. It certainly was confusing, to say the least. That which I witnessed was in no means a "sign for unbelievers," but was, as I see it now, a means for one "verifying to themselves" their Christianity. As I said, I do believe there are born again believers in this movement, and I do think they have fallen prey to tradition, rather than holding to sound doctrine based upon sound exegesis.

But there are worse things which Christians can fall prey to: pride, lust, anger...

Sorry for the length.

S.T.
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29-09-2011, 07:32 PM
RE: Talking in Tongues.
Sorry S.T, COMPUTER PROBLEMS. Hope it isn't "possessed".
Get back to youConfused
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01-10-2011, 10:51 AM
RE: Talking in Tongues.
(29-09-2011 07:32 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Sorry S.T, COMPUTER PROBLEMS. Hope it isn't "possessed".
Get back to youConfused

Not possessed...just a ghost in the machine...lol.

S.T.
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01-10-2011, 11:02 AM
RE: Talking in Tongues.
(29-09-2011 03:18 AM)Blythe Wrote:  
(29-09-2011 12:01 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(28-09-2011 09:11 PM)Blythe Wrote:  
(28-09-2011 05:42 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I would like to address this issue primarily to some of our theist friends.
In my secular research I once attended a charismatic meeting where loud shouts of "Jesus" along with shrieks and mutterings were expressed. There were also gyrations, waves, handclaps, and facial expressions of bliss.

I would like to ask (I am aware of the origins) if demons could not masquerade as healers at these events. There is Biblical reference to demons performing miracles etc.


(2) What are the bona fides of the Pentecostal people who interpret the foreign tongues spoken?


(3) Do you see all this writhing about, ranting and shrieking as an important part of what you deem as the essential Christian message.

Just for the record; while I beleve in demonic or evil behaviour ,I am not a fan of those allegedly lurking within bodies requiring exorcism etc. What do you think?

"There is no cosmic certainty beyond beyond a rigid scepticism"

I have been to churchs where that behaviour was normal - although the church I attended was more conservative -
Talking in to tongues was seem as 'being closer to god'.
What is it? Well its not god, nor demons, its the human mind doing its thing - I can talk in tongues at will, even now, its not hard, its just a mind set -
No demons, just people getting an experience from bein super hyped up -
going to a great concert has the same effect ...
Thanks for your input.
Is the 'speaking in tongues" mind set you refer to understandable to you and others or simply incoherent babble? Are you partially aware of what you are saying or is it totally beyond your control?

There have been some reports, pretty rare, of people speaking in a foreign tongue post anaesthesia.

On our news a week or so ago was a lady who had a stroke and started speaking with a Scottish accent - it is a document side effect of some brain injures.
Speaking in tongues - I would say everyone controls it, and if they say different they are properly not being totally truthful. Sure you can get carried away with the hype, the music, the emotion but really if someone yelled fire, they would all stop and look. Its not 'babble' its like playing a new piece of music, it just sounds put together in a different way.
Do people understand it, of course not, it isn't 'real' it doesn't mean anything, people think its real, but in the end the mind is just doing its thing.

actually i think that's because scottish people sound like theve just had a stroke

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
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