Talking to my Husband
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14-04-2016, 11:40 AM
Talking to my Husband
I believe I have stated but my husband is still a christian. I started having doubts about my Christianity around 3 years ago, but have only called myself atheists as of lately. My husband is really intelligent. He has his PhD, he loves to read, and remembers everything he has read. I believe I am smarter than the average human, but I am no where near where my husband is.

So, when we talk about god, my atheism, bible stories, science, evolution, abiogenesis, I do ok, but it is like I am debating William Lane Craig or Lee Strobel. I will admit, I get emotional when we talk about the things that god did in the bible (the flood, evicting Adam and Eve, Job) Or when we discuss god allowing the jews in WW2 to be tortured and slaughtered. I put myself into their shoes and think of the fear they went through..I tear up and I get angry thinking that if there is a god that allowed that, he is horrible. But, then I look stupid for getting upset over something that I do not think exists. So, he thinks I am an atheist because I am mad at god. That is not true, I just have a soft heart and it hurts me to think of others' suffering.

ANYWAY, he will send me links of things to read. I do read them, but I feel like I am too incompetent to talk about the articles. I know that he reads them and understands them 100% and I know that I do not. I am so frustrated at myself. So, here is an article sent to me. It is crazy long, so you all may not want to read it. But this is what I am against. I am basically married to WLC understudy and I do not see how I can ever get him to see my side.

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/popular-a...-god-exist

P.S. He is a good man and loves me despite my deconversion. He is not condescending to me, he is just highly intelligent.
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14-04-2016, 11:49 AM (This post was last modified: 14-04-2016 11:53 AM by Peebothuhul.)
RE: Talking to my Husband
The first thing that always comes to mind is that no where within those writing by Craig does he ever join the dots between.

"God making the universe/everything."

And said deity actually, specifically being the Christian flavored variety.

He just slides in the statement as if it's a given.

Quote:We can summarize this argument as follows:

1. If God did not exist, the applicability of mathematics would be just a happy coincidence.

2. The applicability of mathematics is not just a happy coincidence.

3. Therefore, God exists.

4. God is the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life.

He just rattles on eventually with "Christian god must'a done it... because...". He just slides it in there. Doesn't even consider that it might/could have been the major Hindu creator god. Or maybe the main Babylonian god. Or Egyptian etc.

Hug

All the best for you and yours.
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14-04-2016, 12:07 PM
RE: Talking to my Husband
Smart people sometimes believe stupid things because they are skilled at defending beliefs acquired through non critical thinking means.

Save a life. Adopt a greyhound.

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14-04-2016, 12:12 PM
Talking to my Husband
Every argument that I have ever seen about God is always missing one thing, God itself.

Where is this god?
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14-04-2016, 12:33 PM (This post was last modified: 14-04-2016 12:42 PM by Commonsensei.)
RE: Talking to my Husband
Even the smartest people can be wrong.

They can be misled and ill informed on different matters.

I for one count myself as ignorant. Not stupid, but ignorant. Just because I don't know something doesn't mean I can't or wont.

Now as far as WLC I feel he's a one trick pony. If the Kalam Argument was a woman he'd marry it. You can watch any of his debates, and seminars and he either always comes back to it, or it is the soul point of his argument. It's the same speech in all his debates.

If your husband is as smart as you say, I would highly suggest your respond with this video.

It's William Lane Craig vs Sean Carroll.

Sean Carroll is a Cosmologist and Physics Professor. He went into the debate knowing full well how and what WLC was going to say. He breaks down the whole process and the holes in his argument.





If you ever get more grief from your husband PLEASE share it. I'm sure many of us would love to give you some fun responses.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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14-04-2016, 12:40 PM
RE: Talking to my Husband
(14-04-2016 11:49 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  The first thing that always comes to mind is that no where within those writing by Craig does he ever join the dots between.

"God making the universe/everything."

And said deity actually, specifically being the Christian flavored variety.

He just slides in the statement as if it's a given.

Quote:We can summarize this argument as follows:

1. If God did not exist, the applicability of mathematics would be just a happy coincidence.

2. The applicability of mathematics is not just a happy coincidence.

3. Therefore, God exists.

4. God is the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life.

He just rattles on eventually with "Christian god must'a done it... because...". He just slides it in there. Doesn't even consider that it might/could have been the major Hindu creator god. Or maybe the main Babylonian god. Or Egyptian etc.

Hug

All the best for you and yours.


That was the only thing that I could think of...ok..so if there is a god, which one?
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14-04-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: Talking to my Husband
(14-04-2016 12:40 PM)SallyBr0wn Wrote:  
(14-04-2016 11:49 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  The first thing that always comes to mind is that no where within those writing by Craig does he ever join the dots between.

"God making the universe/everything."

And said deity actually, specifically being the Christian flavored variety.

He just slides in the statement as if it's a given.


He just rattles on eventually with "Christian god must'a done it... because...". He just slides it in there. Doesn't even consider that it might/could have been the major Hindu creator god. Or maybe the main Babylonian god. Or Egyptian etc.

Hug

All the best for you and yours.


That was the only thing that I could think of...ok..so if there is a god, which one?

I'm working on my approach my wife is a Christian as well. But I know she's never TRULY thought about the subject. If questioned in any regards to her faith, or god in general she shuts down or resorts to shouting her option demanding I accept it.

I've been watching this guy for a few weeks now and he basically gets these people to brake down their own beliefs with simple questions.

https://www.youtube.com/user/magnabosco210/videos

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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14-04-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: Talking to my Husband
(14-04-2016 12:33 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Even the smartest people can be wrong.

They can be misled and ill informed on different matters.

I for one count myself as ignorant. Not stupid, but ignorant. Just because I don't know something doesn't mean I can't or wont.

Now as far as WLC I feel he's a one trick pony. If the Kalam Argument was a woman he'd marry it. You can watch any of his debates, and seminars and he either always comes back to it, or it is the soul point of his argument. It's the same speech in all his debates.

If your husband is as smart as you say, I would highly suggest your respond with this video.

It's William Lane Craig vs Sean Carroll.

Sean Carroll is a Cosmologist and Physics Professor. He went into the debate knowing full well how and what WLC was going to say. He breaks down the whole process and the holes in his argument.





If you ever get more grief from your husband PLEASE share it. I'm sure many of us would love to give you some fun responses.

Thank you so much! I am going to watch this and give it to my husband.

Also, I will let you all know. We do not talk about it much because I do think it hurts him "knowing" his wife is going to hell. But, he will post on his social media links like the one I shared. So, I could definitely use the expertise of people that have been and atheists longer than a year! lol
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14-04-2016, 01:26 PM
RE: Talking to my Husband
I've got a good friend who is also highly intelligent, also very Christian. As PP already said, some people get very skilled at using their natural intelligence to tie themselves in knots to allow themselves to preserve some core belief that they perceive as central to themselves. To me it's a total waste. He's a sharp lad, excellent engineer, and instead of using his free time to do fun stuff he spends his life worrying about the bakruptcy of atheism ™ and writing long facebook posts. Your hubby sounds about the same.

In my experience being caught in the mind-maze that is religion, other people can give you clues but no one can lead you to the way out. Christianity is *packed* with defensive memes. Stuff like "atheists are doing the devil's work", "atheism = Hitler", "faith = good stuff (not rank stupidity)", "Bible = 100% true" etc. Unless you start to question those memes *yourself* (and there are active agents such as pastors who will try to repair the memes and prevent you from escaping), you can't get out. Any number of people can tell you things like "where did the Bible come from? It's foolish to trust this book so blindly", but unless you yourself actually *realise* this, as an intelligent Christee, you are doomed to writing fuck-boring facebook articles about St Paul and wasting large parts of your life worrying about completely ephemeral stupid bullshit, while missing the best bits 'cos you're so focused on the hereafter that you don't take any notice of the here and now.

Um. Please realise that my use of the word "you" and "your" above means the *general* you and not you. I am noted for my ability to lucidly explain the use of the pronoun you. If you are confused you shouldn't be.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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14-04-2016, 02:24 PM
RE: Talking to my Husband
There was a description of religious beliefs for individuals in a book by Jason Long called "Biblical Nonsense" that I really liked.

Religious belief is a function of primarily two things:
1) intelligence
2) indoctrination

You can put both into three categories (low/med/high)

If indoctrination is high, it doesn't really matter how intelligent you are, you are very likely to remain religious.
If you are highly unintelligent and weren't indoctrinated, you are probably easily persuaded into religion later in life.

The "sweet spot" for converting or deconverting is in the middle. Average/medium intelligence and indoctrination (or low indoctrination). Those people have to really confront their beliefs and the ideas around them in order to move one way or the other on the religious spectrum.

If your husband is very smart, and has been indoctrinated into religion his whole life, it is highly unlikely that anything will push him to the other end of the spectrum because (as others have mentioned) he has essentially trapped himself in his apologetic arguments. Why? Because as long as his logic is internally consistent, he believes he is correct. And to be fair, internally consistent logic is a good sign of being correct. But his logic is founded upon illogical beliefs that he probably refrains from actually questioning.

For instance, is there any actual evidence of any god? No, not a shred. But that of course doesn't prove one doesn't exist, so your husband latches onto that and then starts off on a series of attempts to logically explain the universe using the assumption that a god is a plausible being. Despite the fact that plausibility and possibility of a god, has never been demonstrated, making a god implausible and logically inconsistent with explanations of the universe.


I assume your husband probably uses "First Mover" type arguments. The reality is that:
1) we don't know what the first mover was and there is no reason to think it was anything other than a physical or chemical process. And certainly no reason to think it was a conscious process
2) we don't even know if a first mover is necessary. Can you have a cause for an effect when there was no time for the cause to occur?
3) even if you grant a cause to the universe, it takes a mighty stretch of the imagination (and a lot of irrational and illogical assumptions) to go from that to any specific god conceived of by man. How the hell does one go from "cause of the universe" to "had a son through a human virgin to forgive mankind for Eve eating an apple"?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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