Talmud, OT and morality of god
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20-10-2015, 11:16 AM
Talmud, OT and morality of god
l am new to this subject and learned that Talmud book also has many atrocities and being pro child abuse. why isnt it in the old testament? have christians evolved and distanced themselves from this book? is it the same god, the christian god.
would it be relevant when debating the morality of christian god? wha/t are the strongest points to bring up when debating morality or lack of, of the christian god?
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20-10-2015, 11:26 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
The Talmud, as far as I know is a colection of writings after the Torah (essentially the first 5 books of the bible).

Perhaps Aliza can tackle this question better.


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And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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20-10-2015, 12:28 PM (This post was last modified: 20-10-2015 12:34 PM by Tonechaser77.)
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
Mom is correct, Aliza can help with regards to your questions on the Talmud.

(20-10-2015 11:16 AM)Ruby Wrote:  have christians evolved and distanced themselves from this book?

The argument that Christianity grew out of Judaism can be termed as partially correct. It becomes increasingly clear when one studies the nuances of all the middle eastern religions from antiquity that Christianity is probably a conflation of many ideas from that era. Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Mithriasm as well as some other mythic cults of the time seem to have ideas incorporated into Christianity. It's also clear that Christianity has evolved over time even from then. The World Christian Encyclopedia, 2001 cited over 33,000 denominations. I don't know if it can necessarily be determined if Christianity evolved to distance itself from the book. I think it's more likely that it evolved because of how nebulous it was to begin with. When interpretation is required and sentient beings are involved people will determine something to be "truth" in many different ways.

(20-10-2015 11:16 AM)Ruby Wrote:  is it the same god, the christian god.

Generally you'll hear people refer to the Abrahamic religions --originating from the traditions of Iron Age proto-Judaism; the major ones are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, though there are others that are either offshoots of the main three.

All Abrahamic religions worship a single God, variously named El (ancient Semitic name), YHWH/Yahweh (Jewish tradition, sometimes used in Christianity), Jehovah (taboo deformation derived from early Christianity and rabbinical Judaism), Allah (Muslim, from the Arabic form of El), and numerous others. The term "Abrahamic" derives from the status of the Biblical patriarch Abraham as the mythical progenitor of all these related faiths. In modern times, Christianity and Islam are two of the largest and the two most widespread of the five major faiths of the world (the others being Hinduism, Buddhism and "Chinese Traditional", --(RationalWiki, 2015)).

Can we truly determine if it's the same god? I would say no. Believers can't even agree on defining that god. Plus, how can you define something that is not part of our existence in any measurable way? It makes that so-called being meaningless and any efforts to come up with a cognitive explanation is rendered moot.

(20-10-2015 11:16 AM)Ruby Wrote:  would it be relevant when debating the morality of christian god? wha/t are the strongest points to bring up when debating morality or lack of, of the christian god?

There are many nuances to the argument from morality that should be fleshed out, thus many avenues can be addressed such as:

1.) logical fallacies that fall suit with certain premises
a.) The existence of God is assumed in defining something that already exists (morality); therefore it is circular reasoning by attempting to show the existence of God in this manner.
b.) Claiming god leads to problems communicating morality (not just 10,000 ft view morality but nuanced as well) in a way that everyone can understand.

2.) If morality is claimed to be wired into us then this assumes that direct creation did indeed happen and original sin did NOT negate this.

3.) So called objective morality is different across different cultures and if multiple religions use this argument to justify their own, some can come up mutually exclusive. How do we determine which one is correct?

3.) There are plenty of other reasons that support how we obtain our morality other than a sky-daddy.

There are lots of other areas to this. Here's a link to Iron Chariots which should be of some help to you.

Moral Argument - Iron Chariots

**Crickets** -- God
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20-10-2015, 12:36 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
Tonechaser77

I think Ruby is confused about what the Talmud is, first of all. It's not like an uncanonized book of the old testiment (eg; book of judas -- or any number of known writings that simply weren't favored at that time and excluded from the canonized bible)


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And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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20-10-2015, 12:42 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(20-10-2015 11:16 AM)Ruby Wrote:  l am new to this subject and learned that Talmud book also has many atrocities and being pro child abuse. why isnt it in the old testament? have christians evolved and distanced themselves from this book? is it the same god, the christian god.
would it be relevant when debating the morality of christian god? wha/t are the strongest points to bring up when debating morality or lack of, of the christian god?

It is. Many places. Among them :
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (KJV)
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear."

God is love, dontcha know. Facepalm

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20-10-2015, 12:45 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(20-10-2015 11:16 AM)Ruby Wrote:  l am new to this subject and learned that Talmud book also has many atrocities and being pro child abuse. why isnt it in the old testament? have christians evolved and distanced themselves from this book? is it the same god, the christian god.
would it be relevant when debating the morality of christian god? wha/t are the strongest points to bring up when debating morality or lack of, of the christian god?

It appears that Talmud is some kind of clarification and guideline to Torah which explain how Torah should be interpreted. More could be found at: http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

As for christian god biblical flood deals with whatever pass for "debate" about morals of primitive, tribal god appearing in Bible. One can not justify genocide and if one try there is no reason for talking with such person.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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20-10-2015, 01:12 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(20-10-2015 12:36 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Tonechaser77

I think Ruby is confused about what the Talmud is, first of all. It's not like an uncanonized book of the old testiment (eg; book of judas -- or any number of known writings that simply weren't favored at that time and excluded from the canonized bible)

Mom,
Yes, I realize that but thought some of the questions could be answered regardless of me just saying something like "The talmud is a central text for Rabbinic Judaism and contains over 6,000 pages printed of teachings and opinions of many many rabis covering a plethora of subject manner." --which is all I know of it and why I referred her to Aliza as a confirmation to your referral. Smile

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20-10-2015, 02:03 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(20-10-2015 11:16 AM)Ruby Wrote:  wha/t are the strongest points to bring up when debating morality or lack of, of the christian god?

Personally, these are debates I don't often have, anymore. If you talk to someone who is reasonably well versed in apologetics, it will quickly come down to arguments from credulity and incredulity; it's going to be a subjective evaluation of the objective acts of YHWH, and neither side will "prove" their point.

Ironically, it was these very same questions of morality and God that made me really start walking away from Christianity. Only after the fact did I realize they aren't really sound arguments, per se, but more that they showed me that I find the idea of YHWH repugnant.

Other than that, all you're really going to learn from these types of debates is just how far any one given Christian is willing to go to justify the actions of YHWH. You have to ask yourself: is this something I want to know about this person?
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20-10-2015, 04:13 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(20-10-2015 11:16 AM)Ruby Wrote:  l am new to this subject and learned that Talmud book also has many atrocities and being pro child abuse. why isnt it in the old testament? have christians evolved and distanced themselves from this book? is it the same god, the christian god.
would it be relevant when debating the morality of christian god? wha/t are the strongest points to bring up when debating morality or lack of, of the christian god?

I don’t know what passage you’re referring to that is supposedly about child abuse. I think I know where you’re going with this, but I’m not sure and I don’t want to answer the wrong question. Could you please be more specific?

Tonechaser77 did a decent job of describing the Talmud. What he did say gets a thumbs up from me. Thumbsup

The reason that Christians distance themselves from the Talmud is because it states more or less that Jesus can’t be the messiah because of very specific disqualifications. It also gives a depiction of someone who seems very much to be the character of Jesus doing some less than “god-like” things.

Accepting the Talmud just raises too many contradictions for the church to address. Easier just to declare it blasphemous and accuse the Jews of stealing the blood of Christian children to bake into their holiday bread and cookies.
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20-10-2015, 06:41 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(20-10-2015 12:42 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It is. Many places. Among them :
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (KJV)
God is love, dontcha know. Facepalm
You forgot to add "and justice". God is love and justice.

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