Talmud, OT and morality of god
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22-10-2015, 04:16 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(22-10-2015 03:55 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(22-10-2015 03:53 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You really need to use the Reply button. Your quotes are almost always misplaced. You just attributed "Why? God isn't special." to yourself instead of the MarshMonster.



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22-10-2015, 07:28 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 03:29 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  It literally says plain as day that a disobedient son is to be punished by being called a gluttonous drunk (bit weird), promptly followed by a mob execution via stone-pelting.
You called that justice; murdering a boy who wont listen with stones.
Even if we assume the son is not of young age, do you have no concept of severity?
Free Thought, you don't know why God gave these strict laws to those particular people(house of Israel) at that particular time (thousands years ago), do you?
What was the reason for such strict laws?

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22-10-2015, 08:47 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(22-10-2015 08:28 AM)Imathinker Wrote:  Hahaha "workers"? You should have said property. BS, that is not metaphorical at all it is clear as day to everyone except you that it endorses slavery.
It does not endorse slavery.

Also; slavery was a part of civilization for a really long time. It was a way of life. It could have been barbaric in some cases. The bible promotes ethics. It doesn't promote, or condemn slavery because it would cause even more bloodshed. I really want to go over the sections of the OT that reference slavery again. I want to see if it doesn't subtly deny slavery. I know for sure the New Covenant does, though. The teachings of Christ are based in peace and lack of ownership of pretty much anything. Of course, all the bible is both relevant as history and in terms of what is to come.
Over throwing slavery takes government intervention. Even back then it would have at some level. Scripture doesn't get involved directly in government because of the negative effects. This would have been even more true back then.
The bible teaches of how to act without attachment. This includes slavery.
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22-10-2015, 08:50 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(22-10-2015 07:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 03:29 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  It literally says plain as day that a disobedient son is to be punished by being called a gluttonous drunk (bit weird), promptly followed by a mob execution via stone-pelting.
You called that justice; murdering a boy who wont listen with stones.
Even if we assume the son is not of young age, do you have no concept of severity?
Free Thought, you don't know why God gave these strict laws to those particular people(house of Israel) at that particular time (thousands years ago), do you?
What was the reason for such strict laws?

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22-10-2015, 09:30 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(22-10-2015 08:47 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It does not endorse slavery.

Can you not read?

Quote:Leviticus
25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.



(22-10-2015 08:47 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Also; slavery was a part of civilization for a really long time. It was a way of life. It could have been barbaric in some cases. The bible promotes ethics. It doesn't promote, or condemn slavery because it would cause even more bloodshed.

I really want to go over the sections of the OT that reference slavery again. I want to see if it doesn't subtly deny slavery. I know for sure the New Covenant does, though. The teachings of Christ are based in peace and lack of ownership of pretty much anything. Of course, all the bible is both relevant as history and in terms of what is to come.

Over throwing slavery takes government intervention. Even back then it would have at some level. Scripture doesn't get involved directly in government because of the negative effects. This would have been even more true back then.
The bible teaches of how to act without attachment. This includes slavery.

If you can say "Thou shall do no murder", than you can say "Slavery is fucked up. Cut that shit out."

Those paragraphs make my brain hurt. Seriously. Your god can flood the world, create the world for that matter, make the universe, and all this other stuff he supposedly did. But then he can't step in when he's giving a list of instructions and add one more. And lets not even start on the other commandments that were notably missing. Those involving women and children.

This is all your problem, not mine. I can understand that we are an evolving species of primates. We have equal capacity for acts of compassion and savagery. I can even look at those that committed those atrocities and judge them, as best I can, to the standards of their times.

You have to explain why your loving god condoned slavery and the other atrocities.

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22-10-2015, 09:47 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(22-10-2015 08:47 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  ...
It does not endorse slavery.
...

It does. It really does. It even lays out the rules to do it properly.

(22-10-2015 08:47 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  ...
Also; slavery was a part of civilization for a really long time. It was a way of life.

If that is sufficient to make it acceptable to you, then I'm offering $100 for your daughter. Deal?


(22-10-2015 08:47 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  ...
It could have been barbaric in some cases. ...

Please describe the cases where owning another human can be considered to be civilised. Thanks.


(22-10-2015 08:47 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  ...
The bible promotes ethics. It doesn't promote, or condemn slavery because it would cause even more bloodshed.
...

So you're saying that it is ethically neutral on the subject of slavery for political reasons?

You're joking, right?

(22-10-2015 08:47 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  ...
I really want to go over the sections of the OT that reference slavery again. I want to see if it doesn't subtly deny slavery.
...

Fair enough. Although, it's hard to pick cherries out of season. Good luck.

Does it occur to you that you might be looking for the opposite of what is stated (apologetic acrobatics style) to justify your own failed epistemology?

(22-10-2015 08:47 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  ...
I want to see if it doesn't subtly deny slavery. I know for sure the New Covenant does, though. The teachings of Christ are based in peace and lack of ownership of pretty much anything. Of course, all the bible is both relevant as history and in terms of what is to come.
...

Please quote chapter and verse where the script-writers have got Jesus to categorically and unambiguously state his opposition to slavery.

Good luck with that too.

I find more relevance in Lord Of The Rings ... of course ... naturally ... goes without saying etc.

"I have not come to bring peace but a sword" said Gandalf.

(22-10-2015 08:47 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  ...
Over throwing slavery takes government intervention. Even back then it would have at some level. Scripture doesn't get involved directly in government because of the negative effects. This would have been even more true back then.
The bible teaches of how to act without attachment. This includes slavery.

What colour is the sky on your planet?

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23-10-2015, 06:26 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(22-10-2015 08:47 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It does not endorse slavery.

Yes, it does. It explains who can be enslaved and how you are allowed to beat them and pass them on as property to your children.

Quote:Also; slavery was a part of civilization for a really long time. It was a way of life. It could have been barbaric in some cases.

So what? That's all the more reason this god of yours should have commanded "no slavery" instead of just accepting it as part of life.

Quote:The bible promotes ethics.

It also promotes slavery, war, misogyny and many other things. Some good, some bad. It is just what you'd expect from a book that cobbles together a bunch of myths from primitive societies.

Quote:It doesn't promote, or condemn slavery because it would cause even more bloodshed.

That's just ridiculous. God can tell people who is in charge and how to live but he can't condemn slavery for fear of upsetting people? You are grasping at straws because you are desperately trying to find a way to make it make sense. It doesn't. Get over it.

Quote:I really want to go over the sections of the OT that reference slavery again. I want to see if it doesn't subtly deny slavery.

Why the hell would god have to subtly deny slavery? I'm sure you'll try to find a way to interpret that way but the text is clear that slavery is an acceptable practice.

Quote:I know for sure the New Covenant does, though. The teachings of Christ are based in peace and lack of ownership of pretty much anything.

The NT includes parables about slaves and masters and never says people should not be owned. It tells slaves to obey their masters, even the cruel ones. You'll probably gloss over all that because it is uncomfortable but on the issue of slavery the NT does not change anything. It is still a normal, accepted practice as far as anything the characters of Jesus or Paul said or did.

Quote:Of course, all the bible is both relevant as history and in terms of what is to come.

It is relevant as an insight into the culture of the time. It is not reliable as history and there is zero reason to believe it has any prophetic value.

Quote:Over throwing slavery takes government intervention. Even back then it would have at some level. Scripture doesn't get involved directly in government because of the negative effects. This would have been even more true back then.
The bible teaches of how to act without attachment. This includes slavery.

Wow. You are reaching so far you are going to strain something. You betray a complete ignorance of history and reality. You need help Pops. Get some.

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23-10-2015, 06:42 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(22-10-2015 09:47 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(22-10-2015 08:47 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Also; slavery was a part of civilization for a really long time. It was a way of life.
If that is sufficient to make it acceptable to you, then I'm offering $100 for your daughter. Deal?




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23-10-2015, 11:44 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(22-10-2015 09:30 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(22-10-2015 08:47 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It does not endorse slavery.

Can you not read?

[i]
Quote:Leviticus
25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
It doesn't. The scriptures were all written by men. Men inspired by God to varied degrees, but men, none the less. All men have a capacity for evil. Especially men in power, or with wealth.
(22-10-2015 08:47 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Also; slavery was a part of civilization for a really long time. It was a way of life. It could have been barbaric in some cases. The bible promotes ethics. It doesn't promote, or condemn slavery because it would cause even more bloodshed.

I really want to go over the sections of the OT that reference slavery again. I want to see if it doesn't subtly deny slavery. I know for sure the New Covenant does, though. The teachings of Christ are based in peace and lack of ownership of pretty much anything. Of course, all the bible is both relevant as history and in terms of what is to come.

Over throwing slavery takes government intervention. Even back then it would have at some level. Scripture doesn't get involved directly in government because of the negative effects. This would have been even more true back then.
The bible teaches of how to act without attachment. This includes slavery.

If you can say "Thou shall do no murder", than you can say "Slavery is fucked up. Cut that shit out."

Those paragraphs make my brain hurt. Seriously. Your god can flood the world, create the world for that matter, make the universe, and all this other stuff he supposedly did. But then he can't step in when he's giving a list of instructions and add one more. And lets not even start on the other commandments that were notably missing. Those involving women and children.

This is all your problem, not mine. I can understand that we are an evolving species of primates. We have equal capacity for acts of compassion and savagery. I can even look at those that committed those atrocities and judge them, as best I can, to the standards of their times.

You have to explain why your loving god condoned slavery and the other atrocities.
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23-10-2015, 01:37 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
There is a tendency to look at slavery as something of the past. But it is estimated that there are today over 27 million people in the world who are subject to slavery: forced labor, sex trade, inheritable property, etc. As those who have been redeemed from the slavery of sin, followers of Jesus Christ should be the foremost champions of ending human slavery in the world today. The question arises, though, why does the Bible not speak out strongly against slavery? Why does the Bible, in fact, seem to support the practice of human slavery?

The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was based more on economics; it was a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.

The slavery of the past few centuries was often based exclusively on skin color. In the United States, many black people were considered slaves because of their nationality; many slave owners truly believed black people to be inferior human beings. The Bible condemns race-based slavery in that it teaches that all men are created by God and made in His image (Genesis 1:27). At the same time, the Old Testament did allow for economic-based slavery and regulated it. The key issue is that the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.

In addition, both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of “man-stealing,” which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders, who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8–10).

Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society. The Bible often approaches issues from the inside out. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God by receiving His salvation, God will reform his soul, changing the way he thinks and acts. A person who has experienced God’s gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin, as God reforms his soul, will realize that enslaving another human being is wrong. He will see, with Paul, that a slave can be “a brother in the Lord” (Philemon 1:16). A person who has truly experienced God’s grace will in turn be gracious towards others. That would be the Bible’s prescription for ending slavery.
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