Talmud, OT and morality of god
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24-10-2015, 05:31 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(24-10-2015 03:13 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  No. Slavery was one of the things that wasn't set in stone. Uhm, are you sure you have read it? I'm starting to wonder if you have. Just because it wasn't abolished by the very men that benefited from it doesn't mean in any way that God condoned it.

Exodus20:2
Exodus20:5

Slavery was accepted by the servants. They weren't taken against their will.

Cherry picking much? Slavery was SOMETIMES a form of indentured servitude but even that had loopholes (Exodus 21:4-7). People who were conquered in battle were also made into slaves (Exodus 22:11-14) . Non-Hebrew slaves could be purchased from neighboring nations and they were property that could be passed down as inheritance. This was explicitly condoned. (Leviticus 25:44-46)

You are ignoring all the bits you don't agree with or making excuses for them but there is ample justification for slavery in the bible. There are also things that can be used to oppose it. It's a huge mess of contradictory nonsense when viewed as a guide for morality.

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24-10-2015, 06:07 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(24-10-2015 04:03 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Just out of curiosity. What would it take for someone to convert an atheist to Christianity?
Conversion to a particular religious sect? Or simply conversion to a belief in a god?

Atheism is disbelief in gods - were an atheist to become convinced a god or gods did in fact exist such conversion would by no means also mean acceptance of a particular religious sect. Conversion to a sect could only take place AFTER a belief in a god happened first.

For my part I can't imagine anything that would convince me some god exits. In the first place, the concept of what constitutes a god isn't defined. But I think the most common assumption made by everyone, theist and atheist, is that direct observation of some phenomenon the observer cannot explain might convince the observer that an undefined agent was responsible.

Frankly, I'm not stupid enough to follow that path.

If I observe something beyond my knowledge of nature, I make the only legitimate inference possible: I saw something natural; I just don't yet have sufficient knowledge of nature to account for it. So far, in the entire history of humanity to date, that inference has proved sound. There is not a single serious scientific course of study that at ANY point declares that some phenomenon can ONLY be accounted for OUTSIDE of nature.

If it happened, it was natural. It may not be explicable, by me, by anyone, maybe not ever by the finite mass of the present human cerebellum, but if it happened, it was natural.

Hence, for me, if there's a god, or gods, they are a component of nature, and being a component of nature, subject to natural explanation. I guess that'd make them pretty un-godlike.
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24-10-2015, 06:16 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(24-10-2015 05:31 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(24-10-2015 03:13 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  No. Slavery was one of the things that wasn't set in stone. Uhm, are you sure you have read it? I'm starting to wonder if you have. Just because it wasn't abolished by the very men that benefited from it doesn't mean in any way that God condoned it.

Exodus20:2
Exodus20:5

Slavery was accepted by the servants. They weren't taken against their will.

Cherry picking much? Slavery was SOMETIMES a form of indentured servitude but even that had loopholes (Exodus 21:4-7). People who were conquered in battle were also made into slaves (Exodus 22:11-14) . Non-Hebrew slaves could be purchased from neighboring nations and they were property that could be passed down as inheritance. This was explicitly condoned. (Leviticus 25:44-46)

You are ignoring all the bits you don't agree with or making excuses for them but there is ample justification for slavery in the bible. There are also things that can be used to oppose it. It's a huge mess of contradictory nonsense when viewed as a guide for morality.
Not cherry picking or taking out of context. It didn't have a commandment in stone that enforced slavery. Slavery wasn't done by taking others against their will. P.o.W. are a little different. It is obvious that although inspired by truth under God, some of the writings were for the benefit of man. I'm not saying it is the infallible word of God. Not any part specifically condoning slavery of a negative nature anyway. Just because it is seen as inhumane in this day didn't mean it was the same thousands of years ago. Like I said already, if the OT would have banned slavery there would have been bloodshed. How can you get bloodshed from not murdering, stealing, cheating, or luring? In fact, it's pretty hard to mistreat your servants under the laws of the Torah as well. So maybe I am wrong. Maybe it was justified. How would the exceedingly poor have survived if not for being put to work in exchange for sustenance and shelter?
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24-10-2015, 06:17 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
Why is it so hard for atheist to give a simple answer to a simple question?
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24-10-2015, 06:19 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(24-10-2015 06:07 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  Hence, for me, if there's a god, or gods, they are a component of nature, and being a component of nature, subject to natural explanation.
This is the truth.
True Gods are components of nature and subjects to natural explanation. Gods that are not components of nature are false gods, they simply do not exist.
(24-10-2015 06:07 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  I guess that'd make them pretty un-godlike.
I disagree. but why would that make them un-godlike?

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24-10-2015, 06:21 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(24-10-2015 04:03 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Just out of curiosity. What would it take for someone to convert an atheist to Christianity?

Empirical evidence.
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24-10-2015, 06:23 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(24-10-2015 06:17 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Why is it so hard for atheist to give a simple answer to a simple question?
I was an atheist. Only one thing converted me to Christianity - personal revelation from God by the power of the Holy Ghost. Nothing or nobody else could convert me to Christianity.
No atheist will ever believe in Christ unless God will give him or her gift of faith by the power of the Holy Ghost.

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24-10-2015, 06:28 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(24-10-2015 06:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(24-10-2015 06:17 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Why is it so hard for atheist to give a simple answer to a simple question?
I was an atheist. Only one thing converted me to Christianity - personal revelation from God by the power of the Holy Ghost. Nothing or nobody else could convert me to Christianity.
No atheist will ever believe in Christ unless God will give him or her gift of faith by the power of the Holy Ghost.
I agree.
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24-10-2015, 06:30 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(24-10-2015 06:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(24-10-2015 06:17 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Why is it so hard for atheist to give a simple answer to a simple question?
I was an atheist. Only one thing converted me to Christianity - personal revelation from God by the power of the Holy Ghost. Nothing or nobody else could convert me to Christianity.
No atheist will ever believe in Christ unless God will give him or her gift of faith by the power of the Holy Ghost.

That's really a load of something.

I require more proof than "feels right in my head."

I've spent far too much time reading about all the different religions to be so easily swayed by what amounts to just feels.

Too bad you didn't use the thinking part of your brain more.


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And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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24-10-2015, 06:30 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
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