Talmud, OT and morality of god
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25-10-2015, 08:53 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 08:02 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  They haven't built a Christian forum yet from where I won't get banned.

One of the things I most like about you. True story. Thumbsup

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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25-10-2015, 09:07 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 07:15 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  ... Once upon a time on the forum I ran a statistical probability of having three airplane passengers with the same birthday sitting side by side on the same row. It happens way more often than one would imagine ...

Revisualizing the occurrence helps "see" it properly: Fill a bottle with 200 pills, each pill with a random number from 1 to 365 stamped on it. How surprising would it be to find three pills immediately adjacent each other with the same number? Now look for that occurrence in 1,000,000 such bottles - how surprising would it be to NEVER see it in any of the bottles?

It takes education to train our minds to perceive statistics properly. A friend of mine who has surpassed his 3,000,000th flight mile without incident asked me if his "number" was more likely to "come up" on some future flight. I thought about it and told him his odds were actually improving: his flight experience was the same as crossing a minefield where the chances of stepping on a mine at any point in the field were, say, 100,000 to 1 against. However, the odds of hitting a mine trying to cross the field are higher, since each step multiplies the exposure to the risk. The larger the minefield, the greater the risk.

But at his stage of life, the remaining "minefield" is much smaller than it was when he flew his first mile. And each successfully concluded flight leaves him facing a steadily decreasing minefield. Whenever he makes his last flight, his odds will have shrunk to the 1 in 100,000 that apply to any one flight.
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25-10-2015, 09:10 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 09:07 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 07:15 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  ... Once upon a time on the forum I ran a statistical probability of having three airplane passengers with the same birthday sitting side by side on the same row. It happens way more often than one would imagine ...

Revisualizing the occurrence helps "see" it properly: Fill a bottle with 200 pills, each pill with a random number from 1 to 365 stamped on it. How surprising would it be to find three pills immediately adjacent each other with the same number? Now look for that occurrence in 1,000,000 such bottles - how surprising would it be to NEVER see it in any of the bottles?

It takes education to train our minds to perceive statistics properly. A friend of mine who has surpassed his 3,000,000th flight mile without incident asked me if his "number" was more likely to "come up" on some future flight. I thought about it and told him his odds were actually improving: his flight experience was the same as crossing a minefield where the chances of stepping on a mine at any point in the field were, say, 100,000 to 1 against. However, the odds of hitting a mine trying to cross the field are higher, since each step multiplies the exposure to the risk. The larger the minefield, the greater the risk.

But at his stage of life, the remaining "minefield" is much smaller than it was when he flew his first mile. And each successfully concluded flight leaves him facing a steadily decreasing minefield. Whenever he makes his last flight, his odds will have shrunk to the 1 in 100,000 that apply to any one flight.

So he's further from death because he's closer to death.

That makes sense.

Hobo

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25-10-2015, 09:12 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 07:55 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  The only thing I can really understand is that atheist use this forum to vent out their frustrations from [dealing] with theist[s] all day.

Jason, I know a lot of moderate Christians. They’re wonderful people, and they contribute in meaningful ways to society. I love living among them, I know that their moral code is similar to mine, so I feel safe and comfortable being around them. –But these are not the Christians who have caused atheists to push back with such force.

Fundamentalist Christians, on the other hand, look at everything through the filters of their own religion. As a result, they are misinformed about secular subjects such as science, and history, and even the roots of their own religion. They are paranoid about government, and they try to force their religious values on a society that is just not interested. Worst of all, they use fear tactics to convert people, and intimidation to keep church members in their place. They instill feelings of self-loathing, sexual shame and worthlessness into followers. If you find venting here, understand that it is the product of the fundamentalist Christians who zealously push their values on others.

Many of the people on this forum have come out of Christian movements like this, and they are understandably angry. They may roll their eyes at the moderate Christians for their beliefs, but these moderates are not causing the atheist push-back. It's the fundamentalists who are, and anyone who has been a victim of Christian oppression or dogged attempts to evangelize has a justifiable reason to be enraged.
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25-10-2015, 09:30 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 09:12 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Jason, I know a lot of moderate Christians. They’re wonderful people, and they contribute in meaningful ways to society. I love living among them, I know that their moral code is similar to mine, so I feel safe and comfortable being around them. –But these are not the Christians who have caused atheists to push back with such force.

Fundamentalist Christians, on the other hand, look at everything through the filters of their own religion. As a result, they are misinformed about secular subjects such as science, and history, and even the roots of their own religion. They are paranoid about government, and they try to force their religious values on a society that is just not interested. Worst of all, they use fear tactics to convert people, and intimidation to keep church members in their place. They instill feelings of self-loathing, sexual shame and worthlessness into followers. If you find venting here, understand that it is the product of the fundamentalist Christians who zealously push their values on others.

Many of the people on this forum have come out of Christian movements like this, and they are understandably angry. They may roll their eyes at the moderate Christians for their beliefs, but these moderates are not causing the atheist push-back. It's the fundamentalists who are, and anyone who has been a victim of Christian oppression or dogged attempts to evangelize has a justifiable reason to be enraged.

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"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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25-10-2015, 09:33 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 09:12 AM)Aliza Wrote:  ... I know a lot of moderate Christians. They’re wonderful people, and they contribute in meaningful ways to society. I love living among them, I know that their moral code is similar to mine, so I feel safe and comfortable being around them ...

Excellent point. Several close friends are "moderately" religious and in all respects we're all just happy Joes enjoying life in much the same way.

But I wonder, constantly, what it is their religion does for them, especially the ones with high intellect, diverse interests and a wide knowledge of the world. What do their lives have that mine lacks? I don't feel any vacancy - but they would - I've asked them.

But none so far, even trying, has ever been able to coherently answer just what vacancy their belief fills. What would change in their lives if the god they believe in turned out to be non-existent? No answer, not even from the ones who try to answer. And they acknowledge they have no answer. Funny instrument, this mind of ours.
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25-10-2015, 09:38 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 09:10 AM)DLJ Wrote:  So he's further from death because he's closer to death.

That makes sense.

Hobo

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25-10-2015, 09:46 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 09:12 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Jason, I know a lot of moderate Christians. They’re wonderful people, and they contribute in meaningful ways to society. I love living among them, I know that their moral code is similar to mine, so I feel safe and comfortable being around them. –But these are not the Christians who have caused atheists to push back with such force.

I doubt that things are so clear cut in regard to moderate christians. One can be moderate or "moderate" and still try to impose his own belief onto others. One can be moderate and sort of silent backup for fundamentalists.

I too live among so called moderate christians and I see nothing good about them; I find them even more despicable than fundamentalists as the second at least believe that whatever they want to force onto others is good thing. Both of these groups are dangerous to secular society and if state is weak then even so called moderate christians start showing claws.

Also what really mean to be moderate christian? It is believing in "good" parts of the bible while disregarding others?

For me there is only one measure that matters which is not trying to force religious superstitions onto others. If one does not try to do that then one can believe that world was created yesterday for all I care.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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25-10-2015, 09:59 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 08:22 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 08:11 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Lol. Perhaps.

You'll need to decide upon your objective. Will you be finding out how quickly an atheist can be banned or will you trying to stay on as long as possible?

If the latter, will you be a waverer (which will encourage some to take you under their wing) or an investigator (there for evidential / experimental purposes)?

Again, if the latter you will get some hostility straight away.

It's similar to here and indeed like the non-virtual world ... if you behave like you want to be part of the community you'll get one reaction; if you behave like a nosy stranger, you'll get another.
I think my focus is going to be coming across as truly interested in Christianity. I will ask them to explain to me why I should believe in God but they can't use the bible to show me.
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25-10-2015, 10:17 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 09:59 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 08:22 AM)DLJ Wrote:  You'll need to decide upon your objective. Will you be finding out how quickly an atheist can be banned or will you trying to stay on as long as possible?

If the latter, will you be a waverer (which will encourage some to take you under their wing) or an investigator (there for evidential / experimental purposes)?

Again, if the latter you will get some hostility straight away.

It's similar to here and indeed like the non-virtual world ... if you behave like you want to be part of the community you'll get one reaction; if you behave like a nosy stranger, you'll get another.
I think my focus is going to be coming across as truly interested in Christianity. I will ask them to explain to me why I should believe in God but they can't use the bible to show me.

I have to say, Jason, I'm impressed. You heard a claim you wanted to confirm-or-deny, you set up experimental parameters to test your hypothesis, and you are going to use the scientific method in its entirety if you use us as a "Peer Review" process to make sure your approach/methodology is bias-free, neutral data-gathering.

I'm not pulling your chain... I'm actually impressed that a theist heard a claim they could not auto-accept, and decided instead to conduct a scientific test to see if they could confirm the hypothetical (claim). High-five, JD.

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"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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