Talmud, OT and morality of god
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
21-10-2015, 10:26 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
So what is the response to the Deuteronomy verses about stoning disobedient kids? It's pretty clear.

A man should not believe in an ism, he should believe in himself. -Ferris Bueller

That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom. -Jack Sparrow
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Imathinker's post
21-10-2015, 10:36 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 10:26 AM)Imathinker Wrote:  So what is the response to the Deuteronomy verses about stoning disobedient kids? It's pretty clear.

We produce a book called the Chumash, which is the printed Torah and commentary. The commentary is a part of the oral Torah, or Talmud.

The commentary included in the Chumash on this section identifies this verse as being hypothetical, and that it cannot have happened literally in the past, and will never happen in the future. No parent is permitted to kill their kid for being a drunken sod.

The passage is about punishing a child when they're wrong, and not protecting them from the law, like saying "My little Johnny can't have stolen that car, and sold heroin throughout the community. He's a perfect little angel."

The commentary (Talmud) is clear on this. This is a hypothetical verse with an underlying message about upholding the law even with your precious little angels. This is not a verse that directs you to beat or murder your children and has never been taken as such within Judaism.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Aliza's post
21-10-2015, 10:55 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
To me that sounds like an excuse for what was originally written. Yeah i know probably nobody ever did that, but i am skeptical as to how you can discount it as hypothetical. Why wouldn't the author just say you have to punish people for crimes, why would they write it as hyperbole?

A man should not believe in an ism, he should believe in himself. -Ferris Bueller

That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom. -Jack Sparrow
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Imathinker's post
21-10-2015, 11:02 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(20-10-2015 12:28 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  Mom is correct, Aliza can help with regards to your questions on the Talmud.

(20-10-2015 11:16 AM)Ruby Wrote:  have christians evolved and distanced themselves from this book?

The argument that Christianity grew out of Judaism can be termed as partially correct. It becomes increasingly clear when one studies the nuances of all the middle eastern religions from antiquity that Christianity is probably a conflation of many ideas from that era. Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Mithriasm as well as some other mythic cults of the time seem to have ideas incorporated into Christianity. It's also clear that Christianity has evolved over time even from then. The World Christian Encyclopedia, 2001 cited over 33,000 denominations. I don't know if it can necessarily be determined if Christianity evolved to distance itself from the book. I think it's more likely that it evolved because of how nebulous it was to begin with. When interpretation is required and sentient beings are involved people will determine something to be "truth" in many different ways.

(20-10-2015 11:16 AM)Ruby Wrote:  is it the same god, the christian god.

Generally you'll hear people refer to the Abrahamic religions --originating from the traditions of Iron Age proto-Judaism; the major ones are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, though there are others that are either offshoots of the main three.

All Abrahamic religions worship a single God, variously named El (ancient Semitic name), YHWH/Yahweh (Jewish tradition, sometimes used in Christianity), Jehovah (taboo deformation derived from early Christianity and rabbinical Judaism), Allah (Muslim, from the Arabic form of El), and numerous others. The term "Abrahamic" derives from the status of the Biblical patriarch Abraham as the mythical progenitor of all these related faiths. In modern times, Christianity and Islam are two of the largest and the two most widespread of the five major faiths of the world (the others being Hinduism, Buddhism and "Chinese Traditional", --(RationalWiki, 2015)).

Can we truly determine if it's the same god? I would say no. Believers can't even agree on defining that god. Plus, how can you define something that is not part of our existence in any measurable way? It makes that so-called being meaningless and any efforts to come up with a cognitive explanation is rendered moot.

(20-10-2015 11:16 AM)Ruby Wrote:  would it be relevant when debating the morality of christian god? wha/t are the strongest points to bring up when debating morality or lack of, of the christian god?

There are many nuances to the argument from morality that should be fleshed out, thus many avenues can be addressed such as:

1.) logical fallacies that fall suit with certain premises
a.) The existence of God is assumed in defining something that already exists (morality); therefore it is circular reasoning by attempting to show the existence of God in this manner.
b.) Claiming god leads to problems communicating morality (not just 10,000 ft view morality but nuanced as well) in a way that everyone can understand.

2.) If morality is claimed to be wired into us then this assumes that direct creation did indeed happen and original sin did NOT negate this.

3.) So called objective morality is different across different cultures and if multiple religions use this argument to justify their own, some can come up mutually exclusive. How do we determine which one is correct?

3.) There are plenty of other reasons that support how we obtain our morality other than a sky-daddy.

There are lots of other areas to this. Here's a link to Iron Chariots which should be of some help to you.

Moral Argument - Iron Chariots
If God created everything then it created our morality as well, regardless of If you believe it or not. Having a level of morality as an atheist just means that you do not accept that it is God given. It does not mean that God didn't give it. It just means that you can't perceive it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes popsthebuilder's post
21-10-2015, 11:04 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(20-10-2015 12:45 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(20-10-2015 11:16 AM)Ruby Wrote:  l am new to this subject and learned that Talmud book also has many atrocities and being pro child abuse. why isnt it in the old testament? have christians evolved and distanced themselves from this book? is it the same god, the christian god.
would it be relevant when debating the morality of christian god? wha/t are the strongest points to bring up when debating morality or lack of, of the christian god?

It appears that Talmud is some kind of clarification and guideline to Torah which explain how Torah should be interpreted. More could be found at: http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

As for christian god biblical flood deals with whatever pass for "debate" about morals of primitive, tribal god appearing in Bible. One can not justify genocide and if one try there is no reason for talking with such person.
You might want to do a little more research. The flood was to end the massive suffering of man and to give hope for man in the future.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes popsthebuilder's post
21-10-2015, 11:09 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(20-10-2015 02:03 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(20-10-2015 11:16 AM)Ruby Wrote:  wha/t are the strongest points to bring up when debating morality or lack of, of the christian god?

Personally, these are debates I don't often have, anymore. If you talk to someone who is reasonably well versed in apologetics, it will quickly come down to arguments from credulity and incredulity; it's going to be a subjective evaluation of the objective acts of YHWH, and neither side will "prove" their point.

Ironically, it was these very same questions of morality and God that made me really start walking away from Christianity. Only after the fact did I realize they aren't really sound arguments, per se, but more that they showed me that I find the idea of YHWH repugnant.

Other than that, all you're really going to learn from these types of debates is just how far any one given Christian is willing to go to justify the actions of YHWH. You have to ask yourself: is this something I want to know about this person?
Fact is that YHWHcannot be described by man except by adding man to the description giving Yahweh. By adding man to the descriptor you get a description that has negativity and greed in it. These are products of man without the direction of God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes popsthebuilder's post
21-10-2015, 11:11 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 10:55 AM)Imathinker Wrote:  To me that sounds like an excuse for what was originally written. Yeah i know probably nobody ever did that, but i am skeptical as to how you can discount it as hypothetical. Why wouldn't the author just say you have to punish people for crimes, why would they write it as hyperbole?

It's context thing. When you read the whole thing it does become a little more clear they're not talking about small things, but rather big problems.

And because parents are more likely to try to protect their children from their crimes.

Even today, parents spend fortunes defending their children when their children are totally guilty.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Momsurroundedbyboys's post
21-10-2015, 11:13 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(20-10-2015 09:31 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(20-10-2015 06:43 PM)Alla Wrote:  You don't know why God gave those laws to ancient house of Israel, do you?

Actually all the laws in the babble already existed in society. Since you know nothing about History you wouldn't have a clue ... but the writers of the Babble imported already extant customs and said they were god's law. Quite the scam. Just like the one ole Joe Smith pulled.
How is it a scam to state that morals have been around since before written word? As if God was only the creator of all existence after man started writing things down. Silly.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes popsthebuilder's post
21-10-2015, 11:15 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 11:09 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Fact is that YHWHcannot be described by man except by adding man to the description giving Yahweh. By adding man to the descriptor you get a description that has negativity and greed in it. These are products of man without the direction of God.

I think you've got it backwards.

The reason the idea of god has petty human emotions is because he was invented (like all the other gods Zeus, et al) by humans.

The character of god was written jealous, petty and vengeful for a reason...People are.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like Momsurroundedbyboys's post
21-10-2015, 11:17 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 11:13 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(20-10-2015 09:31 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Actually all the laws in the babble already existed in society. Since you know nothing about History you wouldn't have a clue ... but the writers of the Babble imported already extant customs and said they were god's law. Quite the scam. Just like the one ole Joe Smith pulled.
How is it a scam to state that morals have been around since before written word? As if God was only the creator of all existence after man started writing things down. Silly.

Which god? Ra?


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Momsurroundedbyboys's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: