Talmud, OT and morality of god
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25-10-2015, 05:53 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 05:45 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Illnesses. I assume you would mean disease, virus, and genetic issues. It is my belief that most of these things are in some way exasperated by man, be it spread of virus and bacteria, or toxins from non respective pollution and depletion of atmosphere and earth.

Yeah, the last time I got sick I really annoyed the virus. It got really fed up with my attempts to get rid of it.
Facepalm

As for the rest of your drivel... evidence please

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25-10-2015, 05:55 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 05:45 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I have yet to completely give up greed(sin), as I kill myself with nicotine. It is still a fight.

Let go of sin and it won't be a problem let alone a fight. I gave up smoking 30 years ago. I been chewing nicorette gum ever since. My nicotine levels have never been higher. Nicotine won't kill you (well it can but you don't to be nowhere near that LD-50). The carcinogeic tars and shit in the smoke is the sin. Chew some nicorette or put a patch on.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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25-10-2015, 05:57 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 05:40 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 05:05 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I'm sorry you don't like what happened to me.

It has nothing at all to do with liking or not liking what you claim happened. It has to do with you providing evidence that the cause was what you claim it to be. Your "feels" are not evidence. Your apparent delusions are not credible.
What makes them delusions? I do have physical record of it in a form. That is evidence of something surely as I had never read the bible and my writing was quite aligned with something you might expect in a scripture.

Why don't you use a less discrediting term than delusion. Do you have proof that it is delusion? Are you not the one who professes concrete evidence is needed?

By the way; how do you learn anything new if everything must be proven wholly. Nothing is science is proven in a way that ties all together and explains. So we must have more to learn. How do we learn if we limit ourselves to what we strictly know and can easily discern without personal experience?

Let me put it differently;
We know what we have been shown.

What we have been shown is the limit of our perception, not the limit of existence.
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25-10-2015, 06:03 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 03:07 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 02:42 PM)Chas Wrote:  What you are talking about is not evidence. Get a dictionary.
Can you even see your grand and indiscriminate negativity? How is that right?

My 'negativity', as you call it, is quite discriminating and focused. Do you know what evidence is?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-10-2015, 06:12 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 04:59 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 04:51 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Sorry Girly, I thought you knew.

The hell's up with this place? We're losing all our best members.

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25-10-2015, 06:16 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 05:57 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  What makes them delusions?

I called them apparent delusions. Since you claim something completely intangible with no evidence to support it I have no other choice. From my perspective that is the most likely explanation.

Quote: I do have physical record of it in a form. That is evidence of something surely as I had never read the bible and my writing was quite aligned with something you might expect in a scripture.

You have zero clue what evidence would be. You may not have read the bible but you could not have grown up without having heard many examples of it. Joseph Smith was no scriptural expert but wrote stuff that sounded enough like scripture to con people into starting a new religion.

Quote:Why don't you use a less discrediting term than delusion. Do you have proof that it is delusion? Are you not the one who professes concrete evidence is needed?

See above. You are making the claim without evidence. I am saying it sounds like a delusion is a more reasonable assumption. Prove me wrong.

Quote:By the way; how do you learn anything new if everything must be proven wholly. Nothing is science is proven in a way that ties all together and explains. So we must have more to learn. How do we learn if we limit ourselves to what we strictly know and can easily discern without personal experience?

Where did I say you had to prove it wholly? I don't demand absolute certainty before accepting something as likely to be true. What I do demand is some actual reason to believe above and beyond somebody else's personal, unverifiable claim. The stranger the claim, the more convincing the evidence must be.

Quote:Let me put it differently;
We know what we have been shown.

What we have been shown is the limit of our perception, not the limit of existence.

We know what has been demonstrated to be true. We may believe things to varying degrees when the evidence is less conclusive. If we are rational we do not accept claims for which there is no evidence. Your "experience" may be enough for you to believe but your claim to have had it is not itself evidence. The time to believe something is when there is actual evidence for it and not a moment before.

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25-10-2015, 06:18 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 05:19 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 04:26 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  So, does this god you believe in, because of your revelations (or x use), also get the blame when things in your life go wrong or is that all your fault? Consider
All things are of God reciprocal to my actions and oft times mercifully, and forgivingly so. We have our own will. God constantly gives us new outcomes based on our actions and thoughts. It does this for all at all times. It also gave all of existence that we obviously are privy to. Being outwardly good for the sake of existence in a respectful manner in acknowledgement of your own personal responsibility and gift of will and potential without want is reciprocity and as such, beneficial to All.
Sorry rant.

But you can be all that and do all that without god.

I do it all the time.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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25-10-2015, 06:25 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 06:18 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I do it all the time.

(Considers adding this to the "quotes taken out of context" list...)

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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25-10-2015, 06:29 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 05:45 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 05:21 PM)Anjele Wrote:  What about illness? How is that reciprocal? Basically you are saying you get what you deserve from your god.
Illnesses. I assume you would mean disease, virus, and genetic issues. It is my belief that most of these things are in some way exasperated by man, be it spread of virus and bacteria, or toxins from non respective pollution and depletion of atmosphere and earth. Over population creates problems with poverty and desease. This too is from lack of respect for the opportunities given to us.
Even now; I can get quite sick from a common cold as I have bout 50% lung capacity. I know what caused and causes my current dilemma. It is and has always been my own hand. Pretty wild how everything we perceive is of us yet more so by God. I have yet to completely give up greed(sin), as I kill myself with nicotine. It is still a fight. When I say I have help, I do. I must have patience and perseverance too though. I'm really glad the Lord is a merciful God, I know that. I also know that I will not quite. I realized something earlier; the fear it speaks of for me isn't of a hell or sheol, but of shame from lack of outwtdly righteous action regardless of knowledge given by the Creator of existence.


I'm out before I get myself banned over this delusional nitwit.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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25-10-2015, 07:03 PM (This post was last modified: 25-10-2015 07:08 PM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
So Aliza, you've made excellent points throughout this entire thread although there are still a few things that I find troublesome about the Hebrew Scriptures. I'm not going to even pretend to claim I have a deeper understanding of the Talmud than you do, that would be an embarrassing exercise in futility, but I can't help but notice that you have readily admitted that contemporary Judaism has dropped several more questionable tenets and traits from its roster of moral guidelines. You've described what Judaism is and what it teaches from your perspective as a modern day Jew, but what I'm interested in is your viewpoints on what Judaism meant to the Jews during the time when the Masoretic texts were being compiled.

It seems to me, from my layman's understanding, to be two very different things. Maybe not in the big picture but certainly in the details. The Jews described in the OT are quite different from the modern day Jew. They were a very warlike people and their concept of treating others with respect and dignity only extended to members of their own tribe. Others tribes? Not so much; YHWH consistently condones the pillaging, conquering, and enslavement of other tribes. And God help you if you were a non-virgin, unmarried women. Their obsession with virginity and taking conquered girls as their own personal spoils does very little to endear historical Jews in modern eyes, regardless of how distanced Jews currently are from that type of behavior in practice.

So obviously a war tribe that's been exiled from their homelands by a more powerful civilization (in this case the Neo-Babylonians) is going to write political unification document of sorts recounting their supposed history of already surmounting the hardships of exile and slavery while thumping their chests over their stellar record of conquering and enslaving rival tribes, and why not throw in the types moral guidelines that a war-mongering, enslaving people would find suitable. I'm not trying to paint an unflattering picture of your ancestors per se (besides, they are my ancestors as well), but it's clear that the concept of changing morals over time was a priority shunted down at the very bottom of the list of things on the minds of the Talmud compilers.

Basically, modern Jews are aware that some of the documented exploits of their ancestors aren't exactly exemplary of their finest moments, so my question to you is, what do you think the writings meant to the ancient Jews when the culture that was written about was the culture that was reflected in reality? What caused them to transition from a war-tribe that raped and pillaged their rival tribes to the group of people it is today who figured out that perhaps extending the type of respect scripture advocated they give members of their own tribe to other human beings outside their tribe perhaps wasn't such a far-fetched idea after all? When and how did this transition occur?

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