Talmud, OT and morality of god
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25-10-2015, 07:13 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 06:29 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 05:45 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  ~snip~

I'm out before I get myself banned over this delusional nitwit.

Aye. Right behind you.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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25-10-2015, 07:27 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 07:13 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 06:29 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I'm out before I get myself banned over this delusional nitwit.

Aye. Right behind you.

Sure, leave me out here dangling in the wind... I see how it works...

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25-10-2015, 07:53 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 07:03 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  So Aliza, you've made excellent points throughout this entire thread although there are still a few things that I find troublesome about the Hebrew Scriptures. I'm not going to even pretend to claim I have a deeper understanding of the Talmud than you do, that would be an embarrassing exercise in futility, but I can't help but notice that you have readily admitted that contemporary Judaism has dropped several more questionable tenets and traits from its roster of moral guidelines. You've described what Judaism is and what it teaches from your perspective as a modern day Jew, but what I'm interested in is your viewpoints on what Judaism meant to the Jews during the time when the Masoretic texts were being compiled.

It seems to me, from my layman's understanding, to be two very different things. Maybe not in the big picture but certainly in the details. The Jews described in the OT are quite different from the modern day Jew. They were a very warlike people and their concept of treating others with respect and dignity only extended to members of their own tribe. Others tribes? Not so much; YHWH consistently condones the pillaging, conquering, and enslavement of other tribes. And God help you if you were a non-virgin, unmarried women. Their obsession with virginity and taking conquered girls as their own personal spoils does very little to endear historical Jews in modern eyes, regardless of how distanced Jews currently are from that type of behavior in practice.

So obviously a war tribe that's been exiled from their homelands by a more powerful civilization (in this case the Neo-Babylonians) is going to write political unification document of sorts recounting their supposed history of already surmounting the hardships of exile and slavery while thumping their chests over their stellar record of conquering and enslaving rival tribes, and why not throw in the types moral guidelines that a war-mongering, enslaving people would find suitable. I'm not trying to paint an unflattering picture of your ancestors per se (besides, they are my ancestors as well), but it's clear that the concept of changing morals over time was a priority shunted down at the very bottom of the list of things on the minds of the Talmud compilers.

Basically, modern Jews are aware that some of the documented exploits of their ancestors aren't exactly exemplary of their finest moments, so my question to you is, what do you think the writings meant to the ancient Jews when the culture that was written about was the culture that was reflected in reality? What caused them to transition from a war-tribe that raped and pillaged their rival tribes to the group of people it is today who figured out that perhaps extending the type of respect scripture advocated they give members of their own tribe to other human beings outside their tribe perhaps wasn't such a far-fetched idea after all? When and how did this transition occur?

Before I work on a response to this, can anyone provide me with a little backup to help me address the question? I'm operating with the understanding that depictions of biblical wars and war-time practices are restricted to the bible itself and that no external, secular sources exist to validate those stories. If there is archeological evidence to support the descriptions in the bible, can anyone point me in the right direction so I can take that information into account with my answer?
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25-10-2015, 08:09 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 07:27 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 07:13 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Aye. Right behind you.

Sure, leave me out here dangling in the wind... I see how it works...

I am to the point of removing what little filter I have left.

And, I have faith that you can handle it.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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25-10-2015, 08:11 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 08:09 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 07:27 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Sure, leave me out here dangling in the wind... I see how it works...

I am to the point of removing what little filter I have left.

And, I have faith that you can handle it.

Ah, come on, let that inner Rambo go!
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25-10-2015, 08:44 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
What time is it on the north pole?
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25-10-2015, 08:51 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 07:53 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 07:03 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  So Aliza, you've made excellent points throughout this entire thread although there are still a few things that I find troublesome about the Hebrew Scriptures. I'm not going to even pretend to claim I have a deeper understanding of the Talmud than you do, that would be an embarrassing exercise in futility, but I can't help but notice that you have readily admitted that contemporary Judaism has dropped several more questionable tenets and traits from its roster of moral guidelines. You've described what Judaism is and what it teaches from your perspective as a modern day Jew, but what I'm interested in is your viewpoints on what Judaism meant to the Jews during the time when the Masoretic texts were being compiled.

It seems to me, from my layman's understanding, to be two very different things. Maybe not in the big picture but certainly in the details. The Jews described in the OT are quite different from the modern day Jew. They were a very warlike people and their concept of treating others with respect and dignity only extended to members of their own tribe. Others tribes? Not so much; YHWH consistently condones the pillaging, conquering, and enslavement of other tribes. And God help you if you were a non-virgin, unmarried women. Their obsession with virginity and taking conquered girls as their own personal spoils does very little to endear historical Jews in modern eyes, regardless of how distanced Jews currently are from that type of behavior in practice.

So obviously a war tribe that's been exiled from their homelands by a more powerful civilization (in this case the Neo-Babylonians) is going to write political unification document of sorts recounting their supposed history of already surmounting the hardships of exile and slavery while thumping their chests over their stellar record of conquering and enslaving rival tribes, and why not throw in the types moral guidelines that a war-mongering, enslaving people would find suitable. I'm not trying to paint an unflattering picture of your ancestors per se (besides, they are my ancestors as well), but it's clear that the concept of changing morals over time was a priority shunted down at the very bottom of the list of things on the minds of the Talmud compilers.

Basically, modern Jews are aware that some of the documented exploits of their ancestors aren't exactly exemplary of their finest moments, so my question to you is, what do you think the writings meant to the ancient Jews when the culture that was written about was the culture that was reflected in reality? What caused them to transition from a war-tribe that raped and pillaged their rival tribes to the group of people it is today who figured out that perhaps extending the type of respect scripture advocated they give members of their own tribe to other human beings outside their tribe perhaps wasn't such a far-fetched idea after all? When and how did this transition occur?

Before I work on a response to this, can anyone provide me with a little backup to help me address the question? I'm operating with the understanding that depictions of biblical wars and war-time practices are restricted to the bible itself and that no external, secular sources exist to validate those stories. If there is archeological evidence to support the descriptions in the bible, can anyone point me in the right direction so I can take that information into account with my answer?

Bucky should be able to resolve that matter, he's the resident expert on Ancient Near East culture.

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25-10-2015, 08:52 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 08:44 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  What time is it on the north pole?

Greenwich Mean Time (known to the military as "Zulu" Time), Greenwich Observatory time plus zero. All other timezones would vary according to latitude ahead of or behind GMT; there would be no reason to do so at the Poles.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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26-10-2015, 05:12 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 08:52 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 08:44 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  What time is it on the north pole?

Greenwich Mean Time (known to the military as "Zulu" Time), Greenwich Observatory time plus zero. All other timezones would vary according to latitude ahead of or behind GMT; there would be no reason to do so at the Poles.

Latitude?

Blink

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26-10-2015, 05:41 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(25-10-2015 08:44 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  What time is it on the north pole?

Which way are you facing?

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