Talmud, OT and morality of god
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21-10-2015, 11:24 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 10:55 AM)Imathinker Wrote:  To me that sounds like an excuse for what was originally written. Yeah i know probably nobody ever did that, but i am skeptical as to how you can discount it as hypothetical. Why wouldn't the author just say you have to punish people for crimes, why would they write it as hyperbole?

Atheists view our books as totally man made and say that no one should be following them because they’re barbaric. When I tell them that we don't follow it letter for letter in the literal sense, then I'm told, "Well, you're supposed to! You're doing it all wrong!" I’m sorry that you think it’s a cop-out, but maybe you just misunderstood what Judaism is in the first place.

The truth is we've never taught that we're supposed to murder our children if they misbehave. We also don't poke people's eyes out as retribution for any wrongs committed against us.

The reason that the Torah is written in such hyperbolic language is not a conversation that I'm prepared to have at this time. Suffice it to say, throughout Jewish history, the Jews have taken cues from the Talmud on how to apply the law and have not followed the vague and often confusing writings of the Torah literally. –That is not to say that we haven’t done some stupid things in the past, and even some stupid things today because of our holy books. It’s just that we don’t condone violence on account of our scriptures.
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21-10-2015, 11:24 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 11:17 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 11:13 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  How is it a scam to state that morals have been around since before written word? As if God was only the creator of all existence after man started writing things down. Silly.

Which god? Ra?

No, Poseidon.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

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21-10-2015, 11:29 AM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2015 11:35 AM by epronovost.)
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 10:55 AM)Imathinker Wrote:  To me that sounds like an excuse for what was originally written. Yeah i know probably nobody ever did that, but i am skeptical as to how you can discount it as hypothetical. Why wouldn't the author just say you have to punish people for crimes, why would they write it as hyperbole?

People of all culture and religion have beaten their kids to death for centuries and are still doing it right now. Sure, one could say that this perticular verse was used as a boogeyman to scare rebellious teenagers and kids and we can probably assert that mock executions took place to scare the living shit out of a kid much, much more often than real executions. The Jewish culture evolved a lot since this law was first spoken. Many amongst the Jewish community certainly thought it was far too permissive and cruel. Laws and customs change and evolve all the time even in a single group and religion. Most of us will also apply our common sense of moral in any given situation over laws or dictates. Though, I would not say that such a custom never made hundreds of victims let alone a single one. It was a time where slaving women and foreigners was considered «the natural order». It was a time where almost all crime from petty to grave were punishable by death or severe body mutilations. It's a good thing that the Hebrew people and the Jewish community in general changed those laws over time for better ones or chose to use them in another fashion. All cultures do that sort of thing at some point.

A mear few decades ago there were no laws applied in our culture to prevent a man for beating his wife or a his children. It was his right. He could even beat them severly and even if the entire community knew it, more often than not they would simply look the other way and not say a word. It wasn't their business. When they died because of it we used to say things like: «She had such a fragile health and was often sick or weakenned.» or «He was such a little boy/girl, no surprise he died so suddenly.». Only in exceptionnal circomstances were the parents ever procecuted. One could question what sort of barbarian were we. We were the kinf of «barbarians» that normalised a certain form violence and unconsciously decided to ignore it instead of facing it.

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21-10-2015, 11:32 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 11:02 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  If God created everything then it created our morality as well, regardless of If you believe it or not.

True, but you have yet to provide any evidence that this god exists or that it created anything. If the Flying Spaghetti Monster created everything then it created our morality. If a hyper-intelligent, pan-dimensional shad of the color blue created everything then it created our morality.

Your claims are every bit as empty.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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21-10-2015, 11:42 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 11:24 AM)Aliza Wrote:  The reason that the Torah is written in such hyperbolic language is not a conversation that I'm prepared to have at this time. Suffice it to say, throughout Jewish history, the Jews have taken cues from the Talmud on how to apply the law and have not followed the vague and often confusing writings of the Torah literally. –That is not to say that we haven’t done some stupid things in the past, and even some stupid things today because of our holy books. It’s just that we don’t condone violence on account of our scriptures.

The idea that the Torah is not to be taken literally is certainly a step in the right direction. The question is why any book with that much hyperbolic language requiring so much commentary and interpretation is considered valuable at all. Surely it makes more sense to chuck the whole mess and start again with something that is clear and direct.

It seems there are two possible ways to consider it: (a) it is a divinely inspired book by a god that apparently enjoys deceiving and misleading people by creating a set of guidelines that are so convoluted that it is impossible to determine what it really means or (b) it is the product of primitive, barbaric societies and we've moved past much of the immoral behaviors and so have to make excuse after excuse for what the book plainly says.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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21-10-2015, 11:59 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 10:55 AM)Imathinker Wrote:  To me that sounds like an excuse for what was originally written. Yeah i know probably nobody ever did that, but i am skeptical as to how you can discount it as hypothetical. Why wouldn't the author just say you have to punish people for crimes, why would they write it as hyperbole?
God is a merciful, just God, regardless of misrepresentations by man. An unruly child should be disciplined. A yet unruly, destructive chaotic person could need to be dealt with equally more appropriately. We are to show mercy, that mercy may be shown to us.
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21-10-2015, 12:00 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 11:42 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 11:24 AM)Aliza Wrote:  The reason that the Torah is written in such hyperbolic language is not a conversation that I'm prepared to have at this time. Suffice it to say, throughout Jewish history, the Jews have taken cues from the Talmud on how to apply the law and have not followed the vague and often confusing writings of the Torah literally. –That is not to say that we haven’t done some stupid things in the past, and even some stupid things today because of our holy books. It’s just that we don’t condone violence on account of our scriptures.

The idea that the Torah is not to be taken literally is certainly a step in the right direction. The question is why any book with that much hyperbolic language requiring so much commentary and interpretation is considered valuable at all. Surely it makes more sense to chuck the whole mess and start again with something that is clear and direct.

It seems there are two possible ways to consider it: (a) it is a divinely inspired book by a god that apparently enjoys deceiving and misleading people by creating a set of guidelines that are so convoluted that it is impossible to determine what it really means or (b) it is the product of primitive, barbaric societies and we've moved past much of the immoral behaviors and so have to make excuse after excuse for what the book plainly says.

I am pleased that you recognize this as a "step in the right direction", but it might be worth noting that this was recorded in our history between 2,000 and 2,300 years ago. This is not new, and it is not a response to modern-day atheists and Christians challenging our practices. (... just wanted to get that in there!)

Whether it's a book written by an angry god, or a product of primitive people, we're not seeking to convert you or to prove our position. My goal here is simply to state what Judaism is, and how it is actually practiced. Smile
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21-10-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 11:32 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 11:02 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  If God created everything then it created our morality as well, regardless of If you believe it or not.

True, but you have yet to provide any evidence that this god exists or that it created anything. If the Flying Spaghetti Monster created everything then it created our morality. If a hyper-intelligent, pan-dimensional shad of the color blue created everything then it created our morality.

Your claims are every bit as empty.
More Iike common sense. If everything exists and excels through time then it must have started. If everything started at some point, then something had to have made it start.

You can call it what you want. Even if the big bang didn't happen we still had some sort of starting point. I, personally, can not begin to understand how all this could have possibly came from nothing at all, without the intervention of something grand. Even if it has taken over 16 billion years. Not that I think that number is accurate, or not.
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21-10-2015, 12:18 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
The commentary and outside interpretation and bias are the problem. If you started fresh it wouldn't be significant to all and would still lead to war and greed.
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21-10-2015, 12:29 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 12:18 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  The commentary and outside interpretation and bias are the problem. If you started fresh it wouldn't be significant to all and would still lead to war and greed.

I assume that was addressed to me....

Why would we start fresh? What purpose would that serve?
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