Talmud, OT and morality of god
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21-10-2015, 12:33 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 12:15 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  More Iike common sense. If everything exists and excels through time then it must have started. If everything started at some point, then something had to have made it start.

If the thing that made it start exists and "excels through time" (whatever that was supposed to mean), what started that?

Quote: I, personally, can not begin to understand how all this could have possibly came from nothing at all, without the intervention of something grand.

Your personal ignorance and incredulity is not evidence, it is a classic fallacy. You have nothing Pops. Give it up.

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21-10-2015, 12:34 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 12:29 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 12:18 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  The commentary and outside interpretation and bias are the problem. If you started fresh it wouldn't be significant to all and would still lead to war and greed.

I assume that was addressed to me....

Why would we start fresh? What purpose would that serve?

No, it was probably addressed to me as I said the book should be tossed out and a fresh start made. Pops is incapable of using the reply option properly.

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21-10-2015, 12:35 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 11:24 AM)Aliza Wrote:  The reason that the Torah is written in such hyperbolic language is not a conversation that I'm prepared to have at this time. Suffice it to say, throughout Jewish history, the Jews have taken cues from the Talmud on how to apply the law and have not followed the vague and often confusing writings of the Torah literally. –That is not to say that we haven’t done some stupid things in the past, and even some stupid things today because of our holy books. It’s just that we don’t condone violence on account of our scriptures.

Would it be remiss of me to say that the Halakha is a kind of "all-inclusive" which includes subsequent rabbinic and talmudic law besides all the commandments...600+? Way off subject, I was just curious...

Also with regards to hyperbolic language, I have heard in the past that the reason was based around the same "hedge-like" refrain that I mentioned in other threads several months ago? -- In other words, if the law says X (insert hyperbolic consequence) will happen if you commit this transgression, then the devotee will, more than likely, not even go near the possibility of committing that transgression.

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21-10-2015, 12:40 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 12:00 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I am pleased that you recognize this as a "step in the right direction", but it might be worth noting that this was recorded in our history between 2,000 and 2,300 years ago. This is not new, and it is not a response to modern-day atheists and Christians challenging our practices. (... just wanted to get that in there!)

I didn't mean to imply that it was entirely recent. I'm sure people back when the Torah was compiled saw that much of it could not be taken literally. My question is why anybody thinks it is worth the time to try to interpret.

Quote:Whether it's a book written by an angry god, or a product of primitive people, we're not seeking to convert you or to prove our position. My goal here is simply to state what Judaism is, and how it is actually practiced. Smile

Which is why I haven't engaged much so far. The details of what a religion entails is of little interest to me. The question of why people believe it is much more compelling.

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21-10-2015, 12:43 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 12:35 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 11:24 AM)Aliza Wrote:  The reason that the Torah is written in such hyperbolic language is not a conversation that I'm prepared to have at this time. Suffice it to say, throughout Jewish history, the Jews have taken cues from the Talmud on how to apply the law and have not followed the vague and often confusing writings of the Torah literally. –That is not to say that we haven’t done some stupid things in the past, and even some stupid things today because of our holy books. It’s just that we don’t condone violence on account of our scriptures.

Would it be remiss of me to say that the Halakha is a kind of "all-inclusive" which includes subsequent rabbinic and talmudic law besides all the commandments...600+? Way off subject, I was just curious...

Also with regards to hyperbolic language, I have heard in the past that the reason was based around the same "hedge-like" refrain that I mentioned in other threads several months ago? -- In other words, if the law says X (insert hyperbolic consequence) will happen if you commit this transgression, then the devotee will, more than likely, not even go near the possibility of committing that transgression.

Yes, halakha is the whole shebang. It's the Torah, the Talmud, and the entirety of how it's practiced. Halakha only applies to Jews; others are not expected to follow it.

Your explanation of the extreme wording in the Torah maybe covers a sliver of the reasoning. There are other more prominent beliefs behind the specific langage that's used. As I said before, I'm not prepared to discuss it. Besides, it probably gets into a little too much woo for the locals anyway. Big Grin
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21-10-2015, 12:52 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 12:34 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 12:29 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I assume that was addressed to me....

Why would we start fresh? What purpose would that serve?

No, it was probably addressed to me as I said the book should be tossed out and a fresh start made. Pops is incapable of using the reply option properly.
Oops.
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21-10-2015, 01:00 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 11:42 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 11:24 AM)Aliza Wrote:  The reason that the Torah is written in such hyperbolic language is not a conversation that I'm prepared to have at this time. Suffice it to say, throughout Jewish history, the Jews have taken cues from the Talmud on how to apply the law and have not followed the vague and often confusing writings of the Torah literally. –That is not to say that we haven’t done some stupid things in the past, and even some stupid things today because of our holy books. It’s just that we don’t condone violence on account of our scriptures.

The idea that the Torah is not to be taken literally is certainly a step in the right direction. The question is why any book with that much hyperbolic language requiring so much commentary and interpretation is considered valuable at all. Surely it makes more sense to chuck the whole mess and start again with something that is clear and direct.

It seems there are two possible ways to consider it: (a) it is a divinely inspired book by a god that apparently enjoys deceiving and misleading people by creating a set of guidelines that are so convoluted that it is impossible to determine what it really means or (b) it is the product of primitive, barbaric societies and we've moved past much of the immoral behaviors and so have to make excuse after excuse for what the book plainly says.

Have you ever wondered if maybe all holy texts are satire?

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21-10-2015, 01:02 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 11:42 AM)unfogged Wrote:  It seems there are two possible ways to consider it: (a) it is a divinely inspired book by a god that apparently enjoys deceiving and misleading people by creating a set of guidelines that are so convoluted that it is impossible to determine what it really means or (b) it is the product of primitive, barbaric societies and we've moved past much of the immoral behaviors and so have to make excuse after excuse for what the book plainly says.

Exactly how I see it. It just doesn't make sense for this supposedly infallible holy book to be full of a ton of incomprehensible nonsense that is open to any one person's interpretation. The kicker is that it's exactly the kind of thing we would expect if it was NOT inspired by god.

A man should not believe in an ism, he should believe in himself. -Ferris Bueller

That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom. -Jack Sparrow
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21-10-2015, 01:12 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 12:40 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 12:00 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I am pleased that you recognize this as a "step in the right direction", but it might be worth noting that this was recorded in our history between 2,000 and 2,300 years ago. This is not new, and it is not a response to modern-day atheists and Christians challenging our practices. (... just wanted to get that in there!)

I didn't mean to imply that it was entirely recent. I'm sure people back when the Torah was compiled saw that much of it could not be taken literally. My question is why anybody thinks it is worth the time to try to interpret.

Quote:Whether it's a book written by an angry god, or a product of primitive people, we're not seeking to convert you or to prove our position. My goal here is simply to state what Judaism is, and how it is actually practiced. Smile

Which is why I haven't engaged much so far. The details of what a religion entails is of little interest to me. The question of why people believe it is much more compelling.

Just to clarify, the main idea of Torah is not creation, floods, death or destruction. It's not about whether or not Moses led the people out of Egypt. It’s not a book about believing in G-d out of fear of being damned to an eternity in hell, which is not even mentioned. Torah is a book about how to live your life.

- If you wrong someone, make it right.
- Don’t cheat on your spouse.
- Don’t cheat someone in business.
- Stick together as a people.
- Take care of orphans, widows, the elderly, the sick, and the poor.
- Treat everyone with dignity and respect.

These are the main ideas that Torah teaches; it's the meat of the story. The reason that Jewish people follow it is primarily because the advice seems to work for us. We're not afraid of G-d wrath if we screw up. Our lives are improved through following the law, so that's why we believe in it.
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21-10-2015, 01:19 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 01:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:  These are the main ideas that Torah teaches; it's the meat of the story. The reason that Jewish people follow it is primarily because the advice seems to work for us. We're not afraid of G-d wrath if we screw up. Our lives are improved through following the law, so that's why we believe in it.

So you follow a religion because it gives you common sense moral lessons? That seems strange. Just forget the fucking myths and join the real world. Not sure if you've ever heard this before but you don't need god to be an ethical person.

A man should not believe in an ism, he should believe in himself. -Ferris Bueller

That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom. -Jack Sparrow
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