Talmud, OT and morality of god
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
27-10-2015, 09:06 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 08:40 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 08:27 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  When I first arrived at this site there was a lot of talk about tolerance and acceptance on everyone's beliefs.

I don't care how you live you life but I find religion - not only your - to be stupid and harmful. I will say this when I please but that's all, it's you who waste life living with delusion.

(27-10-2015 08:27 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Yet when I do, the out cry is obvious theist are not really accepted or appreciated on this site.

You're not banned so you're accepted. As for appreciation I don't know about others but I see nothing to appreciate about you.

(27-10-2015 08:27 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  That it is really no better than the Christian forum I was kicked from.

You aren't met with universal approval so forum is bad?

(27-10-2015 08:27 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I would like for everyone to believe in Christ but I am not going force my belief on them or shoe judgment toward them?

I'll find it kinda disturbing that you're so concerned with others lives. I don't like religion but I couldn't care less if people live in delusion; it's their life after all, not mine.

(27-10-2015 08:27 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  The only thing I request from everyone is mutual respect.

Respect is earned and I don't see you giving it.

(27-10-2015 08:27 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Not to have every line on every post be picked apart and used as ammunition against me.

Everything you write can be used against you. It should not be surprising.
Yes...you are right for the most part. One flaw that I have ( among many ) is the difficulty I have getting the context of my messages across. I am obviously not very good a conveying my thoughts in text. I wish we were all sitting in some tavern around a ginormous table drinking some stiff drink so we can talk face to face. What I really want everyone to know is that I really do mean well. I don't feel offended. I don't feel hated. I really want to better understand atheist points of view. An example of course is that I had no idea that praying for an atheist could be offensive. I had no idea that it could be seen as judgmental of their lifestyle. I did not even think that to tell an atheist I am praying for them can come across as trying to get brownie points. I assure you that a lesson is learned today. I really appreciate everyone's response. I am not upset and o do not see the out cry as a personal attack on me or my beliefs. But rather people voicing the day to day frustrations atheist have to put up with and the double standards that they reject.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like jason_delisle's post
27-10-2015, 09:12 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 06:12 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 05:20 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Prior to your foray into this forum had you dealt with atheists before?

ps Thank you for your service!
Yes. After I became an officer I was actually shocked at how many Marine officers were either atheist or just didn't care about religion. While stationed in Camp Pendleton as well as Quantico, my roommates and most of their friends were and still are agnostic atheists. Some were were what I call "flamboyant atheist". That is the term to describe an atheist who will go out of there way to push their views on you. Like when someone would sneeze they would say "science bless you". My roommates were more tolerant. Yes we did have discussion about religion. It was very civilized for the most part. There was one time when we were discussing morals of God and he said "I would rather burn in hell and worship a God who would send people to hell because they were never given the opportunity to know Jesus". But that was the worst it ever got. I would have to say that my religious tolerance primarily comes from my military service but a great deal of it is actually living with them. Honestly, i would rather be a friend with a "flamboyant atheist" than someone who says they are a Christian yet does not actually follow the teachings of Jesus. I know i said that I am not trying to convert anyone, but that is not entirely true. Honestly, in my heart, I would love to have everyone reading this to come back to Christ. But I do it by example, not by forcing it on you. The bible teaches Christians to "be a light in the darkness so the lost can find there way". Unfortunately most Christians fail in that aspect along with many others. I can't convert you. Only the Holy Spirit can. A farmer may plant a seed, but he can not command the plant grow. So too I can plant a seed of spiritual wisdom but it is up to God to allow it to flourish. I know most of you on this forum may not believe in God. However just know that you all are loved. I truly love you all and I pray to that "spaghetti monster in the sky" and the "cosmic space wizzard" to bless every single one of you.

I was raised Christian (missionary kid), and everywhere we went we were supposed to have Gawd in our back pocket, ready to bust out at any opportunity. We got trained to see openings, or, worse, to chisel openings to thrust Jeezus into the conversation. This is no different than any other person who befriends others in service of an agenda, whether it's to get people to buy Mary Kay cosmetics or your book, etc. You're may say you're here primarily to gain understanding or make friends, but an objective primary to that is trying to add tallies to your soul count.

There's so much condescension in talking about your role as planting seeds of spiritual wisdom/"loving" everyone on the forum and praying for them/"educating" people who are perfectly familiar with Christianity and the Bible. Not sure why you'd think atheists never encounter people who do this so you're filling some kind of void. We swim in those waters daily and are expected never ever to say a word in protest--that's why it's nice to blow off steam here in the company of like-minded.

Earlier in the thread, you asked what it would take to turn an atheist to Christianity. The answer that you seem determined not to hear is that if your god revealed himself to me in the next five minutes, I, for one, would still not become Christian. And I know there are people with similar opinions here. That's not from lack of knowledge: I've read the Bible cover to cover more than a dozen times (and taken graduate courses in theology) and don't see the Christian god as worthy of anything but revulsion and opposition.

I have no wish to pull you away from your Christianity. I don't grandly tell you that I am trying to plant seeds of wisdom that will flower into disbelief someday, I don't say that I love you despite your awful religion, I don't say that I am sending wishes into the ether for you to become an atheist and have all the blessings that come from that.

I will say that I have heard many people say they are just trying to attract others to Christianity by their example--have never seen a case where that actually occurred. At some point the heaven/hell, you are a horrible sinner sales pitch comes into play. It's a laudable goal, though, and I hope that works for you.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 8 users Like julep's post
27-10-2015, 09:15 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 09:06 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Yes...you are right for the most part. One flaw that I have ( among many ) is the difficulty I have getting the context of my messages across. I am obviously not very good a conveying my thoughts in text.

If you say so.

(27-10-2015 09:06 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  What I really want everyone to know is that I really do mean well.

Isn't road to hell paved with good intentions?

(27-10-2015 09:06 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  An example of course is that I had no idea that praying for an atheist could be offensive.

What is surprising about it? Offering "help" where none is wanted nor needed is hardly a good idea. One could think that you deem him incapable of doing whatever he is doing.

(27-10-2015 09:06 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I did not even think that to tell an atheist I am praying for them can come across as trying to get brownie points.

You didn't? Screaming look how I'm helping you when your help isn't needed (or effective for that matter) isn't something that I consider polite.

(27-10-2015 09:06 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  But rather people voicing the day to day frustrations atheist have to put up with and the double standards that they reject.

Don't know about the others but I'm not venting my frustrations on you. I'm just responding to what you write.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-10-2015, 09:17 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 09:12 AM)julep Wrote:  There's so much condescension in talking about your role as planting seeds of spiritual wisdom/"loving" everyone on the forum and praying for them/"educating" people who are perfectly familiar with Christianity and the Bible. Not sure why you'd think atheists never encounter people who do this so you're filling some kind of void. We swim in those waters daily and are expected never ever to say a word in protest--that's why it's nice to blow off steam here in the company of like-minded.

Earlier in the thread, you asked what it would take to turn an atheist to Christianity. The answer that you seem determined not to hear is that if your god revealed himself to me in the next five minutes, I, for one, would still not become Christian. And I know there are people with similar opinions here. That's not from lack of knowledge: I've read the Bible cover to cover more than a dozen times (and taken graduate courses in theology) and don't see the Christian god as worthy of anything but revulsion and opposition.

QFT.

My signature on every post, from the Atheist Forums, our sister site:

A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
27-10-2015, 09:17 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 09:12 AM)julep Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 06:12 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Yes. After I became an officer I was actually shocked at how many Marine officers were either atheist or just didn't care about religion. While stationed in Camp Pendleton as well as Quantico, my roommates and most of their friends were and still are agnostic atheists. Some were were what I call "flamboyant atheist". That is the term to describe an atheist who will go out of there way to push their views on you. Like when someone would sneeze they would say "science bless you". My roommates were more tolerant. Yes we did have discussion about religion. It was very civilized for the most part. There was one time when we were discussing morals of God and he said "I would rather burn in hell and worship a God who would send people to hell because they were never given the opportunity to know Jesus". But that was the worst it ever got. I would have to say that my religious tolerance primarily comes from my military service but a great deal of it is actually living with them. Honestly, i would rather be a friend with a "flamboyant atheist" than someone who says they are a Christian yet does not actually follow the teachings of Jesus. I know i said that I am not trying to convert anyone, but that is not entirely true. Honestly, in my heart, I would love to have everyone reading this to come back to Christ. But I do it by example, not by forcing it on you. The bible teaches Christians to "be a light in the darkness so the lost can find there way". Unfortunately most Christians fail in that aspect along with many others. I can't convert you. Only the Holy Spirit can. A farmer may plant a seed, but he can not command the plant grow. So too I can plant a seed of spiritual wisdom but it is up to God to allow it to flourish. I know most of you on this forum may not believe in God. However just know that you all are loved. I truly love you all and I pray to that "spaghetti monster in the sky" and the "cosmic space wizzard" to bless every single one of you.

I was raised Christian (missionary kid), and everywhere we went we were supposed to have Gawd in our back pocket, ready to bust out at any opportunity. We got trained to see openings, or, worse, to chisel openings to thrust Jeezus into the conversation. This is no different than any other person who befriends others in service of an agenda, whether it's to get people to buy Mary Kay cosmetics or your book, etc. You're may say you're here primarily to gain understanding or make friends, but an objective primary to that is trying to add tallies to your soul count.

There's so much condescension in talking about your role as planting seeds of spiritual wisdom/"loving" everyone on the forum and praying for them/"educating" people who are perfectly familiar with Christianity and the Bible. Not sure why you'd think atheists never encounter people who do this so you're filling some kind of void. We swim in those waters daily and are expected never ever to say a word in protest--that's why it's nice to blow off steam here in the company of like-minded.

Earlier in the thread, you asked what it would take to turn an atheist to Christianity. The answer that you seem determined not to hear is that if your god revealed himself to me in the next five minutes, I, for one, would still not become Christian. And I know there are people with similar opinions here. That's not from lack of knowledge: I've read the Bible cover to cover more than a dozen times (and taken graduate courses in theology) and don't see the Christian god as worthy of anything but revulsion and opposition.

I have no wish to pull you away from your Christianity. I don't grandly tell you that I am trying to plant seeds of wisdom that will flower into disbelief someday, I don't say that I love you despite your awful religion, I don't say that I am sending wishes into the ether for you to become an atheist and have all the blessings that come from that.

I will say that I have heard many people say they are just trying to attract others to Christianity by their example--have never seen a case where that actually occurred. At some point the heaven/hell, you are a horrible sinner sales pitch comes into play. It's a laudable goal, though, and I hope that works for you.

Well put!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-10-2015, 09:28 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
To agree with what Moms said (forever bawdy broad in my heart Smile ), IF you really want to see what's going on here from a theist's perspective, Come on in, sit down, have that hypothetical beer and SHUT the heck up about what you believe for a while. Everybody has heard all that before as have you.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes skyking's post
27-10-2015, 09:38 AM (This post was last modified: 27-10-2015 09:51 AM by unfogged.)
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 07:37 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Forgive me but I don't think I made my context clear. "Flamboyant atheist" was not intended to be insulting. It was a term I used with my roommate often. We both would rip on each other all in good fun. I only used that to explain that I can relate to what atheist or anyone for that matter when they are badgered constantly and criticized because of their views. The specific example of the sneezing was not why I called them "flamboyant " it was their constant "look at me I am an atheist and you theist can suck it" attitude.

I don't find "flamboyant atheist" to be offensive, it is actually kind of funny. What is offensive is the attitude that an atheist making a joke about how xians behave is "pushing their views on you". Atheists are expected to stay quiet while theists constantly reference their gods and the holy spirit and how we should have that in our lives. We are constantly surrounded by "look at me I am a theist and you atheists are going to suck it" but any push back at all is considered to be shocking and offensive.

In an earlier post you said "After I became an officer I was actually shocked at how many Marine officers were either atheist or just didn't care about religion". My question would be why? Why is somebody not believing what you believe so shocking? I think you may have a hard time communicating clearly with atheists unless you can actually begin to understand that other people can come to different conclusions based on the same evidence or lack thereof.

Quote:These were the type of atheist that found pleasure in trying to make Christians look stupid.

Well, that's usually not too difficult (sorry, couldn't resist the straight line).

Quote:Now don't think for one minute that I don't understand that atheist get that kind of treatment more often than I can imagine. I do not condone bigotry from anyone. I actually hold Christians more accountable.

I believe that you know it to be true but I don't think you understand it. I'd also ask that you think about why you would hold xians more accountable. Everybody is part of the same society and we have exactly the same responsibility to treat others with respect, at least until they show as individuals that they don't deserve it. With or without a god, we are all we have here and now.

Quote: I wish you could have seen me blast some southern country bigot on the Christian forum? Now when I first came on this site I was told to have tough skin because it can get a little offensive at times. Right now I am sorry to say that you need to do the same. I am sorry if what I said offends you. But honestly if a term like "flamboyant atheist" is offensive to you when used as a friendly rip, you may be a little too sensitive for this site.

Again, it's not the term, it is the underlying condescension in many of your posts. I am willing to believe it isn't intentional and just that you aren't used to dealing with atheists who are free to speak their minds. Some is normal since anybody who thinks they are right is going to exhibit it to people who disagree and you'll get some back from us for that reason but remember, this is our place and you're the intruder guest here.

You seem like a reasonably intelligent person. Maybe someday you'll see the dark! Big Grin

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like unfogged's post
27-10-2015, 10:18 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 07:37 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  ...
Forgive me but I don't think I made my context clear. "Flamboyant atheist" was not intended to be insulting.
...

FYI, btw, for what it's worth, incidentally and for the record...
When I read your first reference to "flamboyant atheist" earlier this evening, I was wearing a gold / deep blue waistcoat (vest), a purple velvet jacket with matching, trademark dark purple finger nails.

Trust me, "flamboyant" is not an insult.

Girl_nails

(27-10-2015 07:54 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  ...
Does the fact that I say that I am praying for you offends you?

Not offence exactly.

My reaction is visceral ... like a punch in the gut.

There's an assumption of superiority that I find nauseating and it reminded me of the feeling I used to get when I was very young and saw the local rich kids patronising the poor kids with superior kindness.

The poor kids' reaction was invariably "Fuck you!" and the rich kids went off muttering "I don't understand why he was so offended".

Consider

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like DLJ's post
27-10-2015, 10:22 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 06:23 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Holy Spirit made me an atheist. Tongue

Ain't that the truth.

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
27-10-2015, 10:23 AM
Talmud, OT and morality of god
I'm not angry at Jason for the underlying desire to convert us. I expected it, as I expect any theist to want that. I'm not, however, happy with the idea that again we're hearing we need prayer. I agree with Mom on her post.

And Jason, you did judge us a couple times, including the assumption that atheists are all angry. That still leaves a bitter aftertaste for me.

Now, I don't know if you're aware of how the whole "I'll pray for you" sounds to us. We're often told, even by theists on TTA, that we received incomplete religious upbringing (for those of us who were theists). The suggestion is that we don't fully understand our religion and therefore couldn't answer life's hard questions and emotionally pulled away. It plays into the same claim we hate deities you and others believe in. I won't go into detail into how much research I've done, but trust me it's not close to many here. And I fancied myself as a scholar and later a Christian Kabbalist.

I understand that some of your opinions come from the military. I've known people from all branches. My dad was Army, and I live near Fort Bragg, Camp Lejeune, and Seymour Johnson. I'm not surprised that Marines act like that. I'm more surprised you and the others held back as much, to be honest.

You seem overly convinced we're all offended by what you say. Trust me, we've heard it all and more so many times. Online and in person. On the news. In papers (I got a JW newsletter saying atheists are allowed to be that way as long as they shut up). From friends. From neighbors. Some random guy on the internet isn't new.

Maybe you're not aware of the condescending tones in your posts. Maybe you don't mean it. But others have and more will come. As has been said, go ahead and pray but don't tell us as if it will make a difference. If you truly believe your god likes that, then do that. But we get bombarded with it, overtly and otherwise.

I'm glad you're training to be a military chaplain. I thought about that, too, for a while. Thanks your service and I hope you improve someone's life. But sometimes it doesn't feel like you're learning much about atheists here. I hope I'm wrong and you are, but your old opinions may still be in the way. Sometimes you make sweeping generalizations and then get corrected.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like Clockwork's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: