Talmud, OT and morality of god
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27-10-2015, 10:35 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 09:38 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 07:37 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Forgive me but I don't think I made my context clear. "Flamboyant atheist" was not intended to be insulting. It was a term I used with my roommate often. We both would rip on each other all in good fun. I only used that to explain that I can relate to what atheist or anyone for that matter when they are badgered constantly and criticized because of their views. The specific example of the sneezing was not why I called them "flamboyant " it was their constant "look at me I am an atheist and you theist can suck it" attitude.

I don't find "flamboyant atheist" to be offensive, it is actually kind of funny. What is offensive is the attitude that an atheist making a joke about how xians behave is "pushing their views on you". Atheists are expected to stay quiet while theists constantly reference their gods and the holy spirit and how we should have that in our lives. We are constantly surrounded by "look at me I am a theist and you atheists are going to suck it" but any push back at all is considered to be shocking and offensive.

In an earlier post you said "After I became an officer I was actually shocked at how many Marine officers were either atheist or just didn't care about religion". My question would be why? Why is somebody not believing what you believe so shocking? I think you may have a hard time communicating clearly with atheists unless you can actually begin to understand that other people can come to different conclusions based on the same evidence or lack thereof.

Quote:These were the type of atheist that found pleasure in trying to make Christians look stupid.

Well, that's usually not too difficult (sorry, couldn't resist the straight line).

Quote:Now don't think for one minute that I don't understand that atheist get that kind of treatment more often than I can imagine. I do not condone bigotry from anyone. I actually hold Christians more accountable.

I believe that you know it to be true but I don't think you understand it. I'd also ask that you think about why you would hold xians more accountable. Everybody is part of the same society and we have exactly the same responsibility to treat others with respect, at least until they show as individuals that they don't deserve it. With or without a god, we are all we have here and now.

Quote: I wish you could have seen me blast some southern country bigot on the Christian forum? Now when I first came on this site I was told to have tough skin because it can get a little offensive at times. Right now I am sorry to say that you need to do the same. I am sorry if what I said offends you. But honestly if a term like "flamboyant atheist" is offensive to you when used as a friendly rip, you may be a little too sensitive for this site.

Again, it's not the term, it is the underlying condescension in many of your posts. I am willing to believe it isn't intentional and just that you aren't used to dealing with atheists who are free to speak their minds. Some is normal since anybody who thinks they are right is going to exhibit it to people who disagree and you'll get some back from us for that reason but remember, this is our place and you're the intruder guest here.

You seem like a reasonably intelligent person. Maybe someday you'll see the dark! Big Grin

From what I can understand there are three basic points.

First I was not offended in any way because someone said" science bless you". At the time I actually thought it was funny. I admit it was a terrible example and should have never been used in that post. I did not intend to say that it is bigotry for someone to say "science bless you". But it was my fault it came across that way and I apologize to everyone for the confusion.

Second, to explain why I was amazed at at the atheist. Honestly, prior to becoming an officer on active duty, I did not know any atheist. At least nobody told me they were. So out if ignorance I just assumed everyone to be Christian unless otherwise mentioned. So the shock that I had was basically from coming to the realization of my own ignorance in regard to how common atheism is.

Why do I hold Christians to higher standards? It is the hypocrisy that I detest. The false teachers. It is when people don't practice what they preach. Ghandi said it best, and I am quoting very loosely, "I love your Christ, your Christians...not so much".
I really hope everyone here would believe me when I say that if there was a bigot who came on this forum speaking hate and poison, I want to be notified because I would want to personally rip him/her a new one with you all as witnesses. I am tired of seeing wicked and ignorant Christians try to represent Christ only to bring themselves and myself shame.
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27-10-2015, 10:38 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 10:18 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 07:37 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  ...
Forgive me but I don't think I made my context clear. "Flamboyant atheist" was not intended to be insulting.
...

FYI, btw, for what it's worth, incidentally and for the record...
When I read your first reference to "flamboyant atheist" earlier this evening, I was wearing a gold / deep blue waistcoat (vest), a purple velvet jacket with matching, trademark dark purple finger nails.

Trust me, "flamboyant" is not an insult.

Girl_nails

(27-10-2015 07:54 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  ...
Does the fact that I say that I am praying for you offends you?

Not offence exactly.

My reaction is visceral ... like a punch in the gut.

There's an assumption of superiority that I find nauseating and it reminded me of the feeling I used to get when I was very young and saw the local rich kids patronising the poor kids with superior kindness.

The poor kids' reaction was invariably "Fuck you!" and the rich kids went off muttering "I don't understand why he was so offended".

Consider
I would love to see that outfit. It sounds amazing.
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27-10-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 10:23 AM)Clockwork Wrote:  I'm not angry at Jason for the underlying desire to convert us. I expected it, as I expect any theist to want that. I'm not, however, happy with the idea that again we're hearing we need prayer. I agree with Mom on her post.

And Jason, you did judge us a couple times, including the assumption that atheists are all angry. That still leaves a bitter aftertaste for me.

Now, I don't know if you're aware of how the whole "I'll pray for you" sounds to us. We're often told, even by theists on TTA, that we received incomplete religious upbringing (for those of us who were theists). The suggestion is that we don't fully understand our religion and therefore couldn't answer life's hard questions and emotionally pulled away. It plays into the same claim we hate deities you and others believe in. I won't go into detail into how much research I've done, but trust me it's not close to many here. And I fancied myself as a scholar and later a Christian Kabbalist.

I understand that some of your opinions come from the military. I've known people from all branches. My dad was Army, and I live near Fort Bragg, Camp Lejeune, and Seymour Johnson. I'm not surprised that Marines act like that. I'm more surprised you and the others held back as much, to be honest.

You seem overly convinced we're all offended by what you say. Trust me, we've heard it all and more so many times. Online and in person. On the news. In papers (I got a JW newsletter saying atheists are allowed to be that way as long as they shut up). From friends. From neighbors. Some random guy on the internet isn't new.

Maybe you're not aware of the condescending tones in your posts. Maybe you don't mean it. But others have and more will come. As has been said, go ahead and pray but don't tell us as if it will make a difference. If you truly believe your god likes that, then do that. But we get bombarded with it, overtly and otherwise.

I'm glad you're training to be a military chaplain. I thought about that, too, for a while. Thanks your service and I hope you improve someone's life. But sometimes it doesn't feel like you're learning much about atheists here. I hope I'm wrong and you are, but your old opinions may still be in the way. Sometimes you make sweeping generalizations and then get corrected.
Yeah. I agree with you completely. The sweeping generalized remarks like "all atheist are angry" was not in good taste. I eventually realized that it was messed up. It was out of ignorance which is no excuse but it is something that I am working to improve on. I really do appreciate everyone's voicing their opinion . Sometimes the only way to learn things is the hard way.
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27-10-2015, 10:49 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 10:35 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Why do I hold Christians to higher standards? It is the hypocrisy that I detest. The false teachers. It is when people don't practice what they preach.

Pointing out gently that here you go again. Why say that? It implies that christians are "better people." ALL persons should be held to practice what they avow. Just because christians have a guidebook doesn't mean they are superior or that their behavior is superior. Would you look at an insult and say, "Oh, that's OK. He's an atheist. We cant expect any better."? Atheists are quite capable of the same level of compassion, kindness, and understanding. We are no better/worse/different than anybody else, with the exception that we don't believe in any god.

And you're still here, aren't you? Atheists: 1, Christian Forum: 0 Tongue

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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27-10-2015, 11:28 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 10:38 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I would love to see that outfit. It sounds amazing.
[Image: boy_1.jpg]

#sigh
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27-10-2015, 11:32 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
I ask a question, I get three replies of dodges and defensiveness. Math looks pretty fucking straightforward from here. Dodgy

living word
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27-10-2015, 11:40 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 11:28 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 10:38 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I would love to see that outfit. It sounds amazing.
[Image: boy_1.jpg]
Is that boy george? Fabulous.
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27-10-2015, 11:42 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 07:54 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Does the fact that I say that I am praying for you offends you?

I find it patronizing. Didn't ask for your help. Don't want your help. I got this shit. I can do it all by myself. I am my own personal Lord and Savior, my own personal Jesus, as are we all. This is the teaching of The Christ.

#sigh
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27-10-2015, 11:45 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 11:32 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I ask a question, I get three replies of dodges and defensiveness. Math looks pretty fucking straightforward from here. Dodgy

To be fair JohnnyC, nobody knows when you're asking a question.

#sigh
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27-10-2015, 11:46 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 11:40 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Is that boy george? Fabulous.

aka DLJ's better half.

#sigh
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