Talmud, OT and morality of god
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27-10-2015, 11:56 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 10:23 AM)Clockwork Wrote:  I'm glad you're training to be a military chaplain. I thought about that, too, for a while. Thanks your service and I hope you improve someone's life. But sometimes it doesn't feel like you're learning much about atheists here. I hope I'm wrong and you are, but your old opinions may still be in the way. Sometimes you make sweeping generalizations and then get corrected.

QFT.

Thanks for your service, and I hope your better understanding of atheists allows you to be a better and more-effective chaplain. You're quite right; one of your duties is to understand all of the religious perspectives of the soldiers for whom you are given the task of being counselor and moral guide... that includes the atheists, who reject your faith-traditions not one smidge more than the Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, etc, in your unit do... they may just be slightly more likely to react with veiled hostility to the wrong thing said to them, after a lifetime of having to hear it from others, for the reasons we have already enumerated. But if you really think about it, the opinion of a Hindu soldier whom you help with respect to your religion is going to be effectively identical to the atheist's opinion, except for the fact that the atheist is much, much likelier to be a former Christian.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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27-10-2015, 12:00 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 10:35 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So out if ignorance I just assumed everyone to be Christian unless otherwise mentioned. So the shock that I had was basically from coming to the realization of my own ignorance in regard to how common atheism is.

That's a key part of it I think. Xians in general tend to just assume that everybody else believes the same thing. It underlies many of their actions and much of their speech ("I'll pray for you", "God bless you", etc). They do tend to be shocked that somebody might not believe what they do.

That's all fine as far as it goes; most were brought up in a bubble and never got the chance to hear opposing opinions. The real problem comes in when the reaction is not that they want to learn or understand different viewpoints but that they assume that the other people are broken or need to adapt to their beliefs. You did some of that with your comments about wishing we'd all come to Christ. Trust me, I've looked at the belief and the arguments for it and I don't buy it and it is frustrating to hear over and over that I just need to pray, or ask sincerely, or have faith, or whatever tack is taken.

Consider how life would be if the US (I'm assuming you are American) was 80% or more atheist, the money said "There is no god", the politicians ended all speeches "So help us ourselves", believers were often described as inferior and evil and not to be trusted, belief in a god could get you fired from your job, child custody would often be decided against you because you believe, people were lionized for being "a man/woman without faith", football players thanked their coach and their lucky genetics,.... I'd bet you don't hear or see the vast majority of things in daily life that just assume belief and faith because they are just perfectly normal to you.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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27-10-2015, 12:11 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 11:45 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 11:32 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I ask a question, I get three replies of dodges and defensiveness. Math looks pretty fucking straightforward from here. Dodgy

To be fair JohnnyC, nobody knows when you're asking a question.

Everybody hates me! Sadcryface2

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27-10-2015, 12:14 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 12:11 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 11:45 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  To be fair JohnnyC, nobody knows when you're asking a question.

Everybody hates me! Sadcryface2

I rather like you. -Have since I got here.
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27-10-2015, 12:22 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 12:14 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 12:11 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Everybody hates me! Sadcryface2

I rather like you. -Have since I got here.

Hug

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27-10-2015, 12:28 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
Jason, you might also be well-served in understanding if you read these two articles.

On discrimination against atheists:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/16...13593.html

On US military discrimination against atheists:
http://news.yahoo.com/u-military-problem...00534.html

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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27-10-2015, 12:51 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 12:11 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 11:45 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  To be fair JohnnyC, nobody knows when you're asking a question.

Everybody hates me! Sadcryface2

One day....

I'll get you my pretty and your little Gwynnies too. Tongue

Seriously no one could ever hate you. You're our prophet Bowing


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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27-10-2015, 01:19 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 10:49 AM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 10:35 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Why do I hold Christians to higher standards? It is the hypocrisy that I detest. The false teachers. It is when people don't practice what they preach.

Pointing out gently that here you go again. Why say that? It implies that christians are "better people." ALL persons should be held to practice what they avow. Just because christians have a guidebook doesn't mean they are superior or that their behavior is superior. Would you look at an insult and say, "Oh, that's OK. He's an atheist. We cant expect any better."? Atheists are quite capable of the same level of compassion, kindness, and understanding. We are no better/worse/different than anybody else, with the exception that we don't believe in any god.

And you're still here, aren't you? Atheists: 1, Christian Forum: 0 Tongue
I do not intent to say that Christians are better people. I apologize again if I am not being clear. Btw...you are making a very valid point and I do understand the source of your frustration. I am not in any way trying to say that Christians are better than atheist. Christians are human and are prone to mistakes just like anyone else. They are flawed just like anyone else. So why am I harder on them than let's say atheist? Well my answer is simple and I am fairly certain that it will not be very popular. Now I emphasize to everyone that I am in no way trying to force my religious views on anyone. Only trying to explain why I personally believe the things I do. Please look at this as an explanation for why some Christians may behave the way they do. Particularly in this case, myself.

Now to answer your question. I do not think Christians are better than anyone else. Christians are flawed as I previously stated but I believe they are more accountable for their actions. I will correct them and even rebuke them because that is what is taught in the bible. There are numerous scriptures that say so. Proverbs 27:17, Galatians 6:1-2, Matthew 18:15-17, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 3:12-13. So as a Christian, when another brother or sister in Christ is lead astray, it is my obligation as a Christian to show them the error of their ways. Not out of hate and anger but out of love. Just like a parent scolds a child. A parent does it out of love. So to I am supposed to make known to the Christian in question where he is failing. In the same way I would expect the same treatment.

Now I am not trying to say I am without flaws. I know I have personal battles with sin and I continue to fall short.

Now I am trying very hard to respect atheistic beliefs. I am not perfect at it but I am a working progress. I am not going to hold atheist to the standards written in the bible. It's not fair. Why should I try to force you to conform to the commandments of a religion? I would be upset if a Orthodox Jew told me I was going to hell because I ate bacon. Why should I do the same to anyone else. Btw... I love bacon.

I really hope this will explain my personal views in a way that is understandable. Do you agree that Christians, Jews, Muslim, or Hindu ought to be held accountable for what they claim to represent? Would you be outraged is a person of faith willingly violated the teachings of their faith only to judge you for not living up to their expectations?
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27-10-2015, 01:23 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 12:28 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Jason, you might also be well-served in understanding if you read these two articles.

On discrimination against atheists:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/16...13593.html

On US military discrimination against atheists:
http://news.yahoo.com/u-military-problem...00534.html
I will definitely read it. Thank you.
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27-10-2015, 01:27 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 01:19 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 10:49 AM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  Pointing out gently that here you go again. Why say that? It implies that christians are "better people." ALL persons should be held to practice what they avow. Just because christians have a guidebook doesn't mean they are superior or that their behavior is superior. Would you look at an insult and say, "Oh, that's OK. He's an atheist. We cant expect any better."? Atheists are quite capable of the same level of compassion, kindness, and understanding. We are no better/worse/different than anybody else, with the exception that we don't believe in any god.

And you're still here, aren't you? Atheists: 1, Christian Forum: 0 Tongue
I do not intent to say that Christians are better people. I apologize again if I am not being clear. Btw...you are making a very valid point and I do understand the source of your frustration. I am not in any way trying to say that Christians are better than atheist. Christians are human and are prone to mistakes just like anyone else. They are flawed just like anyone else. So why am I harder on them than let's say atheist? Well my answer is simple and I am fairly certain that it will not be very popular. Now I emphasize to everyone that I am in no way trying to force my religious views on anyone. Only trying to explain why I personally believe the things I do. Please look at this as an explanation for why some Christians may behave the way they do. Particularly in this case, myself.

Now to answer your question. I do not think Christians are better than anyone else. Christians are flawed as I previously stated but I believe they are more accountable for their actions. I will correct them and even rebuke them because that is what is taught in the bible. There are numerous scriptures that say so. Proverbs 27:17, Galatians 6:1-2, Matthew 18:15-17, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 3:12-13. So as a Christian, when another brother or sister in Christ is lead astray, it is my obligation as a Christian to show them the error of their ways. Not out of hate and anger but out of love. Just like a parent scolds a child. A parent does it out of love. So to I am supposed to make known to the Christian in question where he is failing. In the same way I would expect the same treatment.

Now I am not trying to say I am without flaws. I know I have personal battles with sin and I continue to fall short.

Now I am trying very hard to respect atheistic beliefs. I am not perfect at it but I am a working progress. I am not going to hold atheist to the standards written in the bible. It's not fair. Why should I try to force you to conform to the commandments of a religion? I would be upset if a Orthodox Jew told me I was going to hell because I ate bacon. Why should I do the same to anyone else. Btw... I love bacon.

I really hope this will explain my personal views in a way that is understandable. Do you agree that Christians, Jews, Muslim, or Hindu ought to be held accountable for what they claim to represent? Would you be outraged is a person of faith willingly violated the teachings of their faith only to judge you for not living up to their expectations?

Dibs.
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