Talmud, OT and morality of god
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
27-10-2015, 02:26 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
Aliza - I come from a "hugging" culture, the Cajuns, and I've found that up here in the Midwest, the behavior we consider normal down on the bayous is considered intrusive, up here in "personal space land", so I want to preface this with an apology if you consider such a thing to be an affront...

But if we ever meet, remind me that I owe you a high-five and a giant hug for that post. Smile

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
27-10-2015, 02:27 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 02:00 PM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 01:19 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I do not intent to say that Christians are better people. I apologize again if I am not being clear. Btw...you are making a very valid point and I do understand the source of your frustration. I am not in any way trying to say that Christians are better than atheist. Christians are human and are prone to mistakes just like anyone else. They are flawed just like anyone else. So why am I harder on them than let's say atheist? Well my answer is simple and I am fairly certain that it will not be very popular. Now I emphasize to everyone that I am in no way trying to force my religious views on anyone. Only trying to explain why I personally believe the things I do. Please look at this as an explanation for why some Christians may behave the way they do. Particularly in this case, myself.

Now to answer your question. I do not think Christians are better than anyone else. Christians are flawed as I previously stated but I believe they are more accountable for their actions. I will correct them and even rebuke them because that is what is taught in the bible. There are numerous scriptures that say so. Proverbs 27:17, Galatians 6:1-2, Matthew 18:15-17, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 3:12-13. So as a Christian, when another brother or sister in Christ is lead astray, it is my obligation as a Christian to show them the error of their ways. Not out of hate and anger but out of love. Just like a parent scolds a child. A parent does it out of love. So to I am supposed to make known to the Christian in question where he is failing. In the same way I would expect the same treatment.

Now I am not trying to say I am without flaws. I know I have personal battles with sin and I continue to fall short.

Now I am trying very hard to respect atheistic beliefs. I am not perfect at it but I am a working progress. I am not going to hold atheist to the standards written in the bible. It's not fair. Why should I try to force you to conform to the commandments of a religion? I would be upset if a Orthodox Jew told me I was going to hell because I ate bacon. Why should I do the same to anyone else. Btw... I love bacon.

I really hope this will explain my personal views in a way that is understandable. Do you agree that Christians, Jews, Muslim, or Hindu ought to be held accountable for what they claim to represent? Would you be outraged is a person of faith willingly violated the teachings of their faith only to judge you for not living up to their expectations?

My argument is with your use of the term "higher" standard. It's the whole "We christians are superior to you heathens" attitude. Why is your standard any higher than anyone else's standard?

And I am outraged when a person of any faith judges me according to their faith, whether they are perfect or not. Correction - I am outraged when a person of any faith judges me according to their faith and shoves it down my throat. You are free to think of me as you will. Just keep it to yourself.

BTW - bacon is a carcinogen. Even though I've been known to partake myself on occasion. Would you like it if I followed you around and told you this - loudly - every time you thought about a BLT just because I was a vegetarian?

It's not necessarily that anyone thinks this. It's that they proclaim it at 120 decibels ad nauseum. It gets tired real fast.
Please show me exactly where I said that Christians are held to a "higher standard". Because I don't remember ever saying the words "higher standards". So please don't put words in my mouth. I said Christians should be "held more accountable" as in "more accountable for the standards that are already in place in the bible. A standard that Christians accepted when they became Christians. An individual may have higher standards that what the bible has already laid out. You use bacon as a perfect example. I really don't care if bacon causes cancer and I am not expecting you to care if I think it's ok. Eating bacon is perfectly ok in the new testament.

Let me use yet another example you may understand. The military have to abide by the standards of the uniform code of military justice. It is usually a "higher standard" than most regulations civilians are held accountable for. Based on your logic, you assume that because military are held to a "higher standard" military must think they believe they are better than anyone else?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-10-2015, 02:34 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 02:27 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 02:00 PM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  My argument is with your use of the term "higher" standard. It's the whole "We christians are superior to you heathens" attitude. Why is your standard any higher than anyone else's standard?

And I am outraged when a person of any faith judges me according to their faith, whether they are perfect or not. Correction - I am outraged when a person of any faith judges me according to their faith and shoves it down my throat. You are free to think of me as you will. Just keep it to yourself.

BTW - bacon is a carcinogen. Even though I've been known to partake myself on occasion. Would you like it if I followed you around and told you this - loudly - every time you thought about a BLT just because I was a vegetarian?

It's not necessarily that anyone thinks this. It's that they proclaim it at 120 decibels ad nauseum. It gets tired real fast.
Please show me exactly where I said that Christians are held to a "higher standard". Because I don't remember ever saying the words "higher standards". So please don't put words in my mouth. I said Christians should be "held more accountable" as in "more accountable for the standards that are already in place in the bible. A standard that Christians accepted when they became Christians. An individual may have higher standards that what the bible has already laid out. You use bacon as a perfect example. I really don't care if bacon causes cancer and I am not expecting you to care if I think it's ok. Eating bacon is perfectly ok in the new testament.

Let me use yet another example you may understand. The military have to abide by the standards of the uniform code of military justice. It is usually a "higher standard" than most regulations civilians are held accountable for. Based on your logic, you assume that because military are held to a "higher standard" military must think they believe they are better than anyone else?

Oh no... houseofcantor is going to be so pissed. I better get the paper towels and the disinfectant before he reads those first three sentences.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Aliza's post
27-10-2015, 02:34 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
I don't think anyone is accusing YOU of doing that, Jason. We're telling you that people often do, so when you copy that use of language, it can sound to an audience who is (shall we say) less-inclined to trust in your kindhearted intentions like the same sort of judgmental rhetoric that we get here, endlessly, from fundies who come here just to tell us that we're worthless, immoral/amoral, and hateful/prideful "educated idiots". Et cetera.

It seems clear to me that you have a good understanding that your code is for you and those who subscribe to it, only, and that it is a difficult code to subscribe to, which few (you'd say none) meet entirely.

I've always been fond of Paul's expression, in 1 Timothy 1:15 (NIV)... "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst."

We understand where you are coming from and do not find it offensive at all, now that we know you are not one of the people with whom we are forced to contend so bitterly. I for one am glad to find such a person among the devout and, like Gandhi, wish there were more of you.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-10-2015, 02:39 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 02:34 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I don't think anyone is accusing YOU of doing that, Jason. We're telling you that people often do, so when you copy that use of language, it can sound to an audience who is (shall we say) less-inclined to trust in your kindhearted intentions like the same sort of judgmental rhetoric that we get here, endlessly, from fundies who come here just to tell us that we're worthless, immoral/amoral, and hateful/prideful "educated idiots". Et cetera.

It seems clear to me that you have a good understanding that your code is for you and those who subscribe to it, only, and that it is a difficult code to subscribe to, which few (you'd say none) meet entirely.

I've always been fond of Paul's expression, in 1 Timothy 1:15 (NIV)... "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst."

We understand where you are coming from and do not find it offensive at all, now that we know you are not one of the people with whom we are forced to contend so bitterly. I for one am glad to find such a person among the devout and, like Gandhi, wish there were more of you.
Thank you. I appreciate the kind words. But now this is turning into a debate between me and Aliza and her putting words in my mouth. I am not offended. This is a merely a civilized debate. I am not upset. Really.Blush
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-10-2015, 02:39 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 02:34 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Oh no... houseofcantor is going to be so pissed. I better get the paper towels and the disinfectant before he reads those first three sentences.

Angry

Big Grin

That's between Jason and Think. Undecided

[Image: ZF1ZJ4M.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes houseofcantor's post
27-10-2015, 02:46 PM (This post was last modified: 27-10-2015 02:51 PM by jason_delisle.)
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
So Aliza do you believe it is wrong for a service member to be held accountable for the UCMJ? Are you implying that service members think they are "better than thou" because they have to uphold these standards that they volunteered for? Is it wrong for me as an officer in the United States Armed Forces to demand from my Marines that they uphold those standards but not expect a civilian to do the same? Because your argument states that the answer is yes to all. Explain.
[Image: d9baac8864e9a0e3ae6efb7a3f037d3f.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-10-2015, 02:51 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 02:46 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So Aliza do you believe it is wrong for a service member to be held accountable for the UCMJ? Are you implying that service members think they are "better than thou" because they have to uphold these standards that they volunteered for? Is it wrong for me as an officer in the United States Armed Forces to demand from my Marines that they uphold those standards but not expect a civilian to do the same? Because your argument states that the answer is yes to all. Explain.

I don't know what UCMJ means, but I do think that judging people isn't really very nice. I think that holding someone to a certain standard of behavior can be problematic because that person might not be on that emotional level. Leniency is the key.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-10-2015, 02:52 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
Yes!!! I just figured out how to post a picture!😀
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-10-2015, 02:54 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 01:19 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So as a Christian, when another brother or sister in Christ is lead astray, it is my obligation as a Christian to show them the error of their ways. Not out of hate and anger but out of love. Just like a parent scolds a child. A parent does it out of love. So to I am supposed to make known to the Christian in question where he is failing. In the same way I would expect the same treatment.

Ok then. It is you brother in Christ, not me, who has been led astray. It is you brother in The Word, not me, who is on the road to perdition and asking others to join you.

(27-10-2015 01:19 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Would you be outraged is a person of faith willingly violated the teachings of their faith only to judge you for not living up to their expectations?

I expect it.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: