Talmud, OT and morality of god
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21-10-2015, 01:25 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 01:19 PM)Imathinker Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 01:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:  These are the main ideas that Torah teaches; it's the meat of the story. The reason that Jewish people follow it is primarily because the advice seems to work for us. We're not afraid of G-d wrath if we screw up. Our lives are improved through following the law, so that's why we believe in it.

So you follow a religion because it gives you common sense moral lessons? That seems strange. Just forget the fucking myths and join the real world. Not sure if you've ever heard this before but you don't need god to be an ethical person.

.... Why would I think that non-Jews aren't ethical? Who said that?

Is my belief in G-d bothering you? Do I shove it in your face and try to convince you? I've only answered questions directly asked to me. Your beliefs don't bother me one bit, so why should mine bother you?
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21-10-2015, 01:31 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 01:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 12:40 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I didn't mean to imply that it was entirely recent. I'm sure people back when the Torah was compiled saw that much of it could not be taken literally. My question is why anybody thinks it is worth the time to try to interpret.


Which is why I haven't engaged much so far. The details of what a religion entails is of little interest to me. The question of why people believe it is much more compelling.

Just to clarify, the main idea of Torah is not creation, floods, death or destruction. It's not about whether or not Moses led the people out of Egypt. It’s not a book about believing in G-d out of fear of being damned to an eternity in hell, which is not even mentioned. Torah is a book about how to live your life.

- If you wrong someone, make it right.
- Don’t cheat on your spouse.
- Don’t cheat someone in business.
- Stick together as a people.
- Take care of orphans, widows, the elderly, the sick, and the poor.
- Treat everyone with dignity and respect.

These are the main ideas that Torah teaches; it's the meat of the story. The reason that Jewish people follow it is primarily because the advice seems to work for us. We're not afraid of G-d wrath if we screw up. Our lives are improved through following the law, so that's why we believe in it.

In that case, the Aesop fables are just as valid as any holy writ.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

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21-10-2015, 01:33 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 01:31 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 01:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Just to clarify, the main idea of Torah is not creation, floods, death or destruction. It's not about whether or not Moses led the people out of Egypt. It’s not a book about believing in G-d out of fear of being damned to an eternity in hell, which is not even mentioned. Torah is a book about how to live your life.

- If you wrong someone, make it right.
- Don’t cheat on your spouse.
- Don’t cheat someone in business.
- Stick together as a people.
- Take care of orphans, widows, the elderly, the sick, and the poor.
- Treat everyone with dignity and respect.

These are the main ideas that Torah teaches; it's the meat of the story. The reason that Jewish people follow it is primarily because the advice seems to work for us. We're not afraid of G-d wrath if we screw up. Our lives are improved through following the law, so that's why we believe in it.

In that case, the Aesop fables are just as valid as any holy writ.

Sure! Whatever works for you. Tongue
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21-10-2015, 01:34 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
No you don't shove it down anyone's throat, which is good. I'm struggling to understand why you take the Torah so seriously. You said the main point was the lifestyle it described and being a good person, and that was the main reason people follow Judaism. I assert that you don't need to accept the godliness of that advice in order to follow it. You can say they were inspired by god if you want, but asserting something like that without evidence is...confusing to me. At any rate, you are certainly free to do what you want and I'm sorry if I was a little in your face about it.

A man should not believe in an ism, he should believe in himself. -Ferris Bueller

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21-10-2015, 01:43 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 01:34 PM)Imathinker Wrote:  No you don't shove it down anyone's throat, which is good. I'm struggling to understand why you take the Torah so seriously. You said the main point was the lifestyle it described and being a good person, and that was the main reason people follow Judaism. I assert that you don't need to accept the godliness of that advice in order to follow it. You can say they were inspired by god if you want, but asserting something like that without evidence is...confusing to me. At any rate, you are certainly free to do what you want and I'm sorry if I was a little in your face about it.

I can't speak for Aliza or anybody else in her situation, but from my point of view, I would say that you forgot a detail about us humans. We all have our weird bagages and desires. We are beings of contradictions and of nuance. Religion is about gods and magic only in the fondamentalists mind. For the common worshiper its about community, history, tradition and family. The rest is pretty tales, moral fables and a hope for life after death.

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21-10-2015, 01:49 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 01:34 PM)Imathinker Wrote:  No you don't shove it down anyone's throat, which is good. I'm struggling to understand why you take the Torah so seriously. You said the main point was the lifestyle it described and being a good person, and that was the main reason people follow Judaism. I assert that you don't need to accept the godliness of that advice in order to follow it. You can say they were inspired by god if you want, but asserting something like that without evidence is...confusing to me. At any rate, you are certainly free to do what you want and I'm sorry if I was a little in your face about it.

You're right. Belief in G-d is not an essential ingredient in being a good Jew, or for being a good human. We don't follow the scriptures because of a belief in G-d.
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21-10-2015, 02:00 PM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2015 02:06 PM by Tonechaser77.)
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 11:02 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  If God created everything then it created our morality as well, regardless of If you believe it or not. Having a level of morality as an atheist just means that you do not accept that it is God given. It does not mean that God didn't give it. It just means that you can't perceive it.

Pops...what do we have to do to get you to reason logically?

First of all, let's look at your argument:

--if god created everything then god created morality--
--Morality exists--
--god must have created morality--

Where do I even begin? The logical fallacies in this deductive argument are copious.
You have to prove:

1.) that a god(s) exists.

2) Since so many gods have been posited, you must state which god(s) you are talking about.

3.) Must prove that this god or gods created everything

4.) You have to define morality

5.) You have to explain why this god or gods allowed different nuances of morality to come into existence when he/she/it gave some type of "absolutism" of morality in the beginning of existence (if this is what you are claiming).

6.) You have to explain why this god has allowed moral standards to change over time (which refutes objective morality and essentially calls for a relativist view) and puts you back into the position of explaining why this god/gods did not just give everyone the same moral code from the beginning of existence.

7.) Most of all you to reflect on the question, Is what is morally good commanded by god because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by god?

If there are moral standards independent of god's will, then there is something over which god is not sovereign. god is bound by the laws of morality instead of being the one who established those laws. Moreover, god depends for his goodness on the extent to which he conforms to an independent moral standard. Thus, god is not absolutely independent.

Essentially these moral standards would limit god's power: not even god could oppose them by commanding what is evil and thereby making it good.

Also the moral standards would limit god's freedom of will: he/she/it could not command anything opposed to them, and perhaps would have no choice but to command in accordance with them.

Furthermore you must also face the divine command theory dilemma which says that there are no moral standards other than god's will: without god's commands, nothing would be right or wrong.

1.) If there is no moral standard other than god's will, then god's commands are arbitrary.

2.) This arbitrariness would also jeopardize god's status as a wise and rational being, one who always acts on good reasons.

3.) If morality depends on the perfectly free will of god, then it would lose necessity.

I can sum all of this up by saying if you are arguing for morality coming from god you have an incredibly arduous mountain to climb. Especially since morality has evolved over time. This very ideal makes morality meaningless from an objective stand point if you say (for example) god condoned slavery in the OT but now he doesn't.
"A" must always equal "A". If god decides that "A" is NOT moral today but was moral many years ago, you have no objective by which to base this standard and it completely eviscerates said standard rendering the standard not only useless but unable to define.

**Crickets** -- God
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21-10-2015, 02:28 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(20-10-2015 07:21 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(20-10-2015 06:41 PM)Alla Wrote:  You forgot to add "and justice". God is love and justice.

I question your definition of justice if you think murdering a boy with rocks is a just course of action to correct disobedience...
A boy? who says to punish boys?
If you break the law of the land you pay for it. It calls justice.

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21-10-2015, 03:29 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 02:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(20-10-2015 07:21 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  I question your definition of justice if you think murdering a boy with rocks is a just course of action to correct disobedience...

A boy? who says to punish boys?
If you break the law of the land you pay for it. It calls justice.

You said that God is just in response to Bucky quoting Deuteronomy 21:18-21, which reads as follows:

Quote:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

It literally says plain as day that a disobedient son is to be punished by being called a gluttonous drunk (bit weird), promptly followed by a mob execution via stone-pelting.

You called that justice; murdering a boy who wont listen with stones.

Even if we assume the son is not of young age, do you have no concept of severity?

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21-10-2015, 04:00 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 03:29 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  You said that God is just in response to Bucky quoting Deuteronomy 21:18-21, which reads as follows:

Quote:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Yabut, what if it's me who is stubborn and rebellious and a glutton and a drunkard? What's my son to do?

#sigh
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