Talmud, OT and morality of god
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27-10-2015, 06:28 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 05:42 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 05:13 PM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  About holding Christians to higher standards.

Jason -

A part of your theology, without you realizing it, is that we are all terrible, terrible evildoers, and the only way to avoid this situation is to adopt Christian ideas, including divine guidance to avoid what the religion refers to as "sin". The logical conclusion from this premise (which, unfortunately, too many people seem to draw) is that atheists, being completely without Divine Guidance, must be the worst people on earth--- consequently, then, it's not reeeeeeally immoral to do things to us that they wouldn't do to fellow Believers, or anyone they considered fully human. ("It's only what atheists would expect, since they think they're just animals anyway!") It may sound silly to you, but that's exactly what happens with that, and all too many of us have experienced it personally. What happens in the name-calling here is extraordinarily mild by comparison to some of our real-life experiences.

I realize that, as an aspiring pastor/chaplain, you see your entire job as trying to hold yourself to a higher standard of moral behavior than is normal for humanity (even good-hearted, well-intentioned humans), and to try to encourage other members of your faith to live by those standards. I realize as well that your fondest hope is that your example of Christ-like behavior could somehow become so shiny that others will notice the shine, and want to know what your secret is. And I admire that aspect of Christianity. I really do!

Unfortunately, because you have swallowed a lot more cultural programming than I think you realize (not the religion itself, but the ideas that tend to circulate in the culture of that religious group), you tend only to see Christians in the light I just described, and accidentally turn a blind eye to the overall effect the practicioners of your religion is having on others. As long as I am rated as untrustworthy, hateful, amoral, etc., based on that passage in Romans and a lot of similar theological ideas to that one, I can never approve of calling the Christian moral code a "higher" one.

So although you see honor in your sense of religious code, and I agree and admire that hopeful and kind aspect of your beliefs, the fact is that most of the adherents of your religion (or more to the point, the combined "weight" of so many practicioners of that religion) cause a great deal of pain and suffering in this world, and in this country. And worse, they are seemingly either blind to the fact that it is happening, in the case of the best half among you, or else claiming that they are justified in acting as they do, in the case of the worst half among you.
I completely understand. Which is why I am non-denominational. Perhaps the reason why I am drawn to the atheist community is because in some aspects,obviously not all, we are the same. I assume that most atheists don't accept things for face value. They tend to ask a lot of questions about why we should or should not believe something and expect to see the evidence without any bias to make an informed decision on their own.
I myself was born and raised Roman Catholic and I was a Catholic (although not a good one) until I was 21. I left the Catholic Church because I began to actually question their doctrine. In almost every denomination there is some kind of "list of sorts" or doctrine that says something like "this is what (fill in the blank denomination) believe and you have to believe these things to be considered one of us. But time and time again I have found biblical flaws in their doctrine. I don't like going to a church and having someone tell me what I should believe when I can clearly read the bible myself. So, like many atheist, rather than taking information at face value I instead questioned the teachings. I challenged to doctrines of the church. I did my own research. So I guess to explain it more simply, for similar reasons why atheist reject religion, I have rejected the dogma associated within Christian denominations. I never lost faith in God. I really don't want to sound like a complete quack so I might keep this one to myself. All I will say is that I have personal reasons why I completely believe in the existence of God.
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27-10-2015, 06:52 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 06:28 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I completely understand. Which is why I am non-denominational. Perhaps the reason why I am drawn to the atheist community is because in some aspects,obviously not all, we are the same. I assume that most atheists don't accept things for face value. They tend to ask a lot of questions about why we should or should not believe something and expect to see the evidence without any bias to make an informed decision on their own.
I myself was born and raised Roman Catholic and I was a Catholic (although not a good one) until I was 21. I left the Catholic Church because I began to actually question their doctrine. In almost every denomination there is some kind of "list of sorts" or doctrine that says something like "this is what (fill in the blank denomination) believe and you have to believe these things to be considered one of us. But time and time again I have found biblical flaws in their doctrine. I don't like going to a church and having someone tell me what I should believe when I can clearly read the bible myself. So, like many atheist, rather than taking information at face value I instead questioned the teachings. I challenged to doctrines of the church. I did my own research. So I guess to explain it more simply, for similar reasons why atheist reject religion, I have rejected the dogma associated within Christian denominations. I never lost faith in God. I really don't want to sound like a complete quack so I might keep this one to myself. All I will say is that I have personal reasons why I completely believe in the existence of God.

Totally cool, man. We do mean it when we say that choice of religion is a private affair to which every person is entitled (including "None").

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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27-10-2015, 07:08 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
If I like enough posts do I get an achievement?
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27-10-2015, 07:16 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
No, actually 200 was your limit on Theist Posts. I'm afraid you needn't bother to even click Post Reply when you try to answer this.

It won't work. Wink

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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27-10-2015, 07:24 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 06:28 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I myself was born and raised Roman Catholic and I was a Catholic (although not a good one) until I was 21.
Good to see another recovering Catholic. It's rather easy to question that church, though. Smile
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27-10-2015, 07:38 PM (This post was last modified: 27-10-2015 09:01 PM by Aliza.)
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 07:08 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  If I like enough posts do I get an achievement?

No, but doing so alleviates some of my annoyance. Consider
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27-10-2015, 07:43 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 07:38 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 07:08 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  If I like enough posts do I get an achievement?

No, but doing so alleviates some of my annoyace.Consider

Why are you annoyed? You seem to be earning rep rather nicely. Likes are cool, rep points even better. Tongue

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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27-10-2015, 07:59 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 07:43 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 07:38 PM)Aliza Wrote:  No, but doing so alleviates some of my annoyace.Consider

Why are you annoyed? You seem to be earning rep rather nicely. Likes are cool, rep points even better. Tongue

Oh no, no, no. I just had thought that I said something that would be taken in a positive way, but then he was like, Evil_monster "We're debating!" and something about the military and what I think about Marine's uniforms and how he treats his marines. And it was very confusing for me.

.... but stroking my ego by liking a bunch of my posts does help somewhat. Big Grin
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27-10-2015, 08:02 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 02:34 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I've always been fond of Paul's expression, in 1 Timothy 1:15 (NIV)... "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst."

Hmmm. Sounds like false modesty, to me, especially in light of other things that Paul is alleged to have written.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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27-10-2015, 08:02 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 07:59 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 07:43 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Why are you annoyed? You seem to be earning rep rather nicely. Likes are cool, rep points even better. Tongue

Oh no, no, no. I just had thought that I said something that would be taken in a positive way, but then he was like, Evil_monster "We're debating!" and something about the military and what I think about Marine's uniforms and how he treats his marines. And it was very confusing for me.

.... but stroking my ego by liking a bunch of my posts does help somewhat. Big Grin

Conversations here are often not linear. You get used to it.

A like and a rep for your ego. Tongue

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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