Talmud, OT and morality of god
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28-10-2015, 04:56 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 04:46 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 04:42 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Whatever happened to Mark 6:7?

…6 “But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. 7 “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8 “So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.…

...but then you are a Gentile so I guess it doesn’t apply?

Does it really say that? I turned to Mark 6, but I couldn't find that verse.

He meant Matt.

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28-10-2015, 05:32 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 01:19 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Now to answer your question. I do not think Christians are better than anyone else. Christians are flawed as I previously stated but I believe they are more accountable for their actions.

No, no, no, just no. Jason, I can guarantee you that every atheist on this forum is just as accountable for their actions as you. In the statement above you fail to see the very dichotomy of what you say. “We’re not better BUT we’re more accountable”, which in my eyes is bullshit. I am as much accountable for my actions as you are for yours, no more, no less.

You say what you say because you believe your god is keeping track of who’s been naughty and who’s been nice and sitting in judgement of you.
Meanwhile someone like me knows when I look in the mirror everyday that the person looking back is the one person I must appease and live with. My faults and shortcomings live with me everyday and the only one who can atone or correct them is me. I am 100% accountable to me, I hold no one or nothing else as either a scapegoat or responsible.

Saying Christians are more accountable again shows your bias. This is not an accusation but rather an observation. If you are going to be a Chaplain I think you need to open your eyes on how your current thinking comes across to anyone NOT a Christian.

(27-10-2015 01:19 PM)‘jason_delisle Wrote:  Now I am trying very hard to respect atheistic beliefs. I am not perfect at it but I am a working progress. I am not going to hold atheist to the standards written in the bible. It's not fair. Why should I try to force you to conform to the commandments of a religion? I would be upset if a Orthodox Jew told me I was going to hell because I ate bacon. Why should I do the same to anyone else. Btw... I love bacon.

Bro, the standards of the Bible are so base and low and immoral and dehumanizing that saying you won’t hold an atheist to its standards is compliment.

(27-10-2015 01:19 PM)‘jason_delisle Wrote:  I really hope this will explain my personal views in a way that is understandable. Do you agree that Christians, Jews, Muslim, or Hindu ought to be held accountable for what they claim to represent? Would you be outraged is a person of faith willingly violated the teachings of their faith only to judge you for not living up to their expectations?

You say this from Christian perspective and fail to utterly realize what the are ramifications.
When a Muslim follows the edicts of the Q’uran on such things as apostasy or against infidels by killing them are you not giving them your stamp of approval by your thinking above?
How about when a Christian child is unruly? Are you not failing to represent the teachings of the Bible when you don’t stone him?

Be careful what standards you hold so highly without truly examining them is my advice to you.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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28-10-2015, 05:50 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 04:46 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 04:42 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Whatever happened to Mark 6:7?

…6 “But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. 7 “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8 “So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.…

...but then you are a Gentile so I guess it doesn’t apply?

Does it really say that? I turned to Mark 6, but I couldn't find that verse.

Oops, Matthew 6:7 Blush

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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28-10-2015, 05:59 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 04:46 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 04:42 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Whatever happened to Mark 6:7?

…6 “But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. 7 “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8 “So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.…

...but then you are a Gentile so I guess it doesn’t apply?

Does it really say that? I turned to Mark 6, but I couldn't find that verse.
Well... when you are right you are right. It is just such a common practice in my bubble that I don't think about it sometimes. I find that a lot of Christians say I "I will be praying for you" what they are really saying is "I don't know what I can do to help so let me give you some support by showing sympathy for you". Now the scripture is a rather good one. It is one of my favorites. In your context it is correct. There is also a scripture somewhere that says if you want to do a good deed for someone you should do it anonymously. However the focus in that scripture, from what I understand, is that it was speaking out against pride and vanity. During the old testament hebrew period your righteousness was determined by how well you followed the law...period. With that righteousness came a status or reputation. Many Jews and priests would turn simple prayer into huge spectacular events to literally state "I am holier than thou". Basically the heart of the mater in that verse is to worship and pray because you want to please God not because you want to put up an image.

Once again I say you made a really good point and you have opened my eyes if you will. Because I find that when most Christians say "I will pray for you" most will openly admit they never actually do. So why say it? It is because they think that it is what a "good" Christian is supposed to say. So they are trying to put up an image of being a "good" christian. Thank you.
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28-10-2015, 06:14 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 03:54 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 11:57 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Who? That was then, this is now the rag on the new guy thread. Unless you want some?

Oooh! That's fightin' talk. OK, come at me, bro.

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28-10-2015, 08:57 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 05:32 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 01:19 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Now to answer your question. I do not think Christians are better than anyone else. Christians are flawed as I previously stated but I believe they are more accountable for their actions.

No, no, no, just no. Jason, I can guarantee you that every atheist on this forum is just as accountable for their actions as you. In the statement above you fail to see the very dichotomy of what you say. “We’re not better BUT we’re more accountable”, which in my eyes is bullshit. I am as much accountable for my actions as you are for yours, no more, no less.

You say what you say because you believe your god is keeping track of who’s been naughty and who’s been nice and sitting in judgement of you.
Meanwhile someone like me knows when I look in the mirror everyday that the person looking back is the one person I must appease and live with. My faults and shortcomings live with me everyday and the only one who can atone or correct them is me. I am 100% accountable to me, I hold no one or nothing else as either a scapegoat or responsible.

Saying Christians are more accountable again shows your bias. This is not an accusation but rather an observation. If you are going to be a Chaplain I think you need to open your eyes on how your current thinking comes across to anyone NOT a Christian.

(27-10-2015 01:19 PM)‘jason_delisle Wrote:  Now I am trying very hard to respect atheistic beliefs. I am not perfect at it but I am a working progress. I am not going to hold atheist to the standards written in the bible. It's not fair. Why should I try to force you to conform to the commandments of a religion? I would be upset if a Orthodox Jew told me I was going to hell because I ate bacon. Why should I do the same to anyone else. Btw... I love bacon.

Bro, the standards of the Bible are so base and low and immoral and dehumanizing that saying you won’t hold an atheist to its standards is compliment.

(27-10-2015 01:19 PM)‘jason_delisle Wrote:  I really hope this will explain my personal views in a way that is understandable. Do you agree that Christians, Jews, Muslim, or Hindu ought to be held accountable for what they claim to represent? Would you be outraged is a person of faith willingly violated the teachings of their faith only to judge you for not living up to their expectations?

You say this from Christian perspective and fail to utterly realize what the are ramifications.
When a Muslim follows the edicts of the Q’uran on such things as apostasy or against infidels by killing them are you not giving them your stamp of approval by your thinking above?
How about when a Christian child is unruly? Are you not failing to represent the teachings of the Bible when you don’t stone him?

Be careful what standards you hold so highly without truly examining them is my advice to you.
I will have to tell you that I disagree with you entirely. Let's use the example of lust. Jesus says that to even look or think about someone in lust is adultery. I think almost everyone here can agree that cheating on your spouse isn't right. Now let's just say I am in a bar with two friends. One is an atheist and the other is a Christian. Both of them are married. We see a very attractive waitress and both of them start to check her out. Who do you think I will confront and why? I will confront the Christian because as a Christian he should know about this teaching and to ensure peace and blessings (an avoid possible guilt) I will stop him.

Now on the other hand I agree that just because someone is an atheist that does not mean they have lower standards, as you explained. So let's just say that only the Christian checks out the waitress but then it is the atheist who tells the Christian "hey man, that's messed up. You should respect women." The Christian will still have to admit you are correct and stop his behavior. Now let's just say both of my friends are atheists and the same scenario occurs. If one friend says to the other that it is derogatory to women to look at them like a piece of meat, the other can simply say "I don't care don't. That is your standard don't try to put your standards on me. Do you think you are better than me because I think it is ok to check out the waitress and you don't? " Now who is going to hold the atheist accountable when their personal standards are not being upheld? I won't correct him. I may not even know what his standards are and why should I but my standards on him? Have you ever found that sometimes you may have high personal standards on a specific issue but then those standards slowly erode over time? Then eventually you ask yourself "how did I ever sink so low?" Because the truth is that when it comes to "personal standard" you are saying that the only accountability you have is yourself and that you are the only thing protecting yourself from yourself. How well does that work for you?

I hear a lot of people on this forum talking about stoning unruly children. You are referring to old testament law. Without things getting out of hand you should read what I posted in the thread regarding that topic. Basically Jesus raised the standards. When confronted with an adulteress who was to be stoned to death he was asked if the Jews should carry out the penalty that Moses commanded. Jesus picked up a stone and showed it to the priests and said "he without sin may cast the first stone". He did not specifically tell them that she does not deserve to be stoned and that it was wrong. His focus was that to show mercy and forgiveness in spite of the law because "mercy overcomes judgment". This is something that that church in New York failed to recognize and most Christians (unfortunately not all) would condemn such behavior.
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28-10-2015, 09:05 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 07:37 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 07:11 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK!?!

Do you hear yourself?


You realize that that's just a response to the ACTUAL, EVERYDAY "pushing their views on you" that Christians do when they say "God bless you", right?

You just criticized an atheist for doing a halfhearted mockery of something that's an everyday practice under the sheer and astounding arrogance that is Christianity-- arrogant because you presume you have the right to "bless" me using your space-wizard magic (to help keep the demons out when I sneeze, I guess?) in the first place?

Look man, I appreciate that you have a good heart, and are willing to treat us decently... but you don't even realize the bigoted way you are treating us, even in a moment of genuine, conciliatory sympathy. To presume that an atheist who jokingly speaks in the same way Christians do every day is to presume that Christians have a right to do so without being labeled arrogant, but we don't. If you label them when they do what you do, you're accomplishing their goal-- to get you to see that your own system deserves the vitriol which we heap upon it.
Forgive me but I don't think I made my context clear. "Flamboyant atheist" was not intended to be insulting. It was a term I used with my roommate often. We both would rip on each other all in good fun. I only used that to explain that I can relate to what atheist or anyone for that matter when they are badgered constantly and criticized because of their views. The specific example of the sneezing was not why I called them "flamboyant " it was their constant "look at me I am an atheist and you theist can suck it" attitude. These were the type of atheist that found pleasure in trying to make Christians look stupid. Now don't think for one minute that I don't understand that atheist get that kind of treatment more often than I can imagine. I do not condone bigotry from anyone. I actually hold Christians more accountable. I wish you could have seen me blast some southern country bigot on the Christian forum? Now when I first came on this site I was told to have tough skin because it can get a little offensive at times. Right now I am sorry to say that you need to do the same. I am sorry if what I said offends you. But honestly if a term like "flamboyant atheist" is offensive to you when used as a friendly rip, you may be a little too sensitive for this site.

That's very amusing since you are clearly a flamboyant theist. Drinking Beverage

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28-10-2015, 09:07 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 07:52 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Listen. I very much apologize if the term "flamboyant atheist " offended anyone on this site. However, I think bigotry is something that effects just about every group, race, religion, or political view. Yes, the term I use for bigots in the atheist community are "flamboyant " but the terms I use for Christian bigots are much worse and I will gladly go to a preacher's face and tell if he is.

I see. You don't mean to be insulting when you use that term to describe what you consider "atheist bigots". Consider

Do you even hear yourself? Facepalm

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28-10-2015, 09:20 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(27-10-2015 08:51 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I never claimed that I was hated here. I am only making a point that for people to say they are "offended" when I say I am praying for them or jokingly use a term "flamboyant atheist" to describe the bigots in the atheist community

Since you haven't defined "atheist bigot" but use "flamboyant atheist" to describe typical (and justified) reactions by atheists, of course we're fucking offended.
Try listening to your own words. Facepalm

Quote:and then at every opportunity they call my God a hate filled spaghetti monster.

Your level of misunderstanding is high. No one calls your God a hate filled spaghetti monster. Facepalm
The Flying Spaghetti Monster (pasta be his name) is an all-loving deity and is in no manner to be confused with your imaginary God.

Quote:Do you think that after living with agnostic atheist for 2 years I never heard those insults before?

What insults? I think you are imagining them.

Quote:Yet never once did I ever get offended by it. Neither did my roommates get offended when I called atheist bigots "flamboyant ".

Define "atheist bigots". Drinking Beverage

Quote:Would it be better if I just simply called them ass holes? Is that less offensive to everyone. Every group has that ass hole who makes everyone look bad. I just felt the term flamboyant was a little more tactful.

Define your terms.

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28-10-2015, 09:24 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Now who is going to hold the atheist accountable when their personal standards are not being upheld?

Let’s just let the individual atheist decide for themselves if they think that checking out a waitress is wrong, and if they think that it is, then let’s trust that person to moderate their own behavior.

(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Have you ever found that sometimes you may have high personal standards on a specific issue but then those standards slowly erode over time? Then eventually you ask yourself "how did I ever sink so low?"

When I change my mind about something, I don’t think “Oh my goodness, I’ve really let myself down [because I'm a worthless sinner who can't do anything for herself without Jesus].” I instead think, “Oh, It seems that I’ve changed my mind about something! This old belief used to work for me, but perhaps I have grown as a person and my beliefs have evolved right along with me. This new belief seems to be a better fit for me now. I'm going to keep it.”

I happen to really like changing, and I’m not afraid to shed old beliefs in favor of new ones. I can self-moderate my behavior because I’m smart, confident, sensitive, educated (in the general sense), and moral.
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